You said you could never admit your beliefs are wrong because you know that you received an answer from God. The problem is that devotees of any other religion could, and often do make the exact same claim.
Can you respond to this point, which is elaborated very well in the third and fourth foundational falsehood of creationism (videos) by fellow youtube user Aronra?
They do, but no other religon has the book of mormon to confirm of its truth. Every other christian denomination has the bible, and so the mormons. But the LDS church also has more scripture with a specific promise to ask God if it is true. We are the ONLY church who has a book with a specific promise in it to do this.
@jaromsmiss In my experience Moroni's promise did not work - it is vague about how the holy ghost will reveal knowledge, and says nothing about repeatedly asking. If one tries hard enough, they can have a religious experience and convince themselves that any particular religion is true.
What did you think of the 3rd video in the series I recommended?
I used to be religious until I examined my beliefs and realized they were not justified.
The above information is not convincing to anyone who believes the Bible is a work of historical fiction. The Book of Mormon is even less convincing, as it doesn't even appear to be historical.
True faith comes from the spirit of the living God.
You say that anyone can convince themselves that any religon is true, maybe for people who are ignorant and sadly too simple minded, but for anybody who has the option to chose among literally thousands of different denominations, and truly wants to know which church has the most accurate teachings, it takes a sincere heart and even effort of the one who prays to God for truth. Im here to tell you that i have
experienced a spiritual witness from my father in heaven through his spirit, and if I did then u can too. It took lots of prayer and a heart that was sincere. It did not come fast, but I recieved my answer and i will never be able to deny it.
There is no other book in the world with a specific promise to ask the man who knows.
@jaromsmiss I do not see any reliable method of distinguishing between emotional or faith-induced experiences and what mormons claim to be the Holy Ghost.
I might be persuaded to accept the argument if there was actual correlation between observed reality and religious teachings. After many years of investigation on my part, evidence indicates that religion resembles fairy tales more than actual reality.
@jaromsmiss Do you realize that saying you feel sorry for someone because of their beliefs comes across as annoying, arrogant & condescending? No offense taken, however as I understand the doctrinal conditioning behind that perspective.
@jaromsmiss well J Smith was always redundant throughout his book; Its the same basic tripe--boring, like in 4 Ne 1:6; I mean, isnt this passage just a bit too discriptive? lol..Where is any history with being rather tripe about it? Why bother to waste precious space? Why not---not write on the gold metal until something actually does happen? You have to admit that this passage lacks practical sense, and, this sort of thing also occurs in 3 Ne 5:7
@jaromsmiss ---according to Harris, "I never saw the gold plates, only in a visionary or entranced state....In about three days I went into the woods to pray that I might see the plates. While praying I passed into a state of entrancement, and in that state I saw the angel and the plates." (Anthony Metcalf, Ten Years Before the Mast, n.d., microfilm copy, p. 70-71).
@jaromsmiss 3 witnesses were that of his own house hold. his father and 2 brothers would sign anything for their own brother.Harris went to pray about the plates by himself to see a vision of them, was separated from the rest of the group. Later, it is believed that Smith had Cowdrey makeshift up some metal plates, Again not a very hard thing to do, stacked iron steel plates, keeping them covered with a cloth etc, Cowdrey also was once a blacksmith, and known for his counterfeiting practices.
@jaromsmiss I do believe that David Whitmer did have a vision (self induced or demon of light, or other mystical spirits, I dont know) He believed in a book with many Bible passages, so his religiouosity is the reason for recieving it.This is not uncommon, many ex-members when leaving the LDS organization, still believe the book of Mormon to be the word of God, including the Tanners, till they studied it further and found that it was only a counterfeit, a man made fabrication and a complete lie.
@jaromsmiss The story goes that while Smith, Cowdrey and David and Harris all when out to the woods to pray about the plates. Two said they saw something in a vision. (Cowdrey I believe was in on the gag) Harris when he wasnt seeing anything, went out alone into the wooded area away from everybody to pray, hence came back saying he saw the plates, (ie his dream as well) So where the heck were the so called physical plates if Harris saw them in a different separate location from the other two?
none of the witnesses ever denied that they had seen the plates. For you to say that they did is a lie. I have given you the testimonies of the three witnesses at their deathbed.
some of the witnesses did leave the church, I dont deny that. But it makes it all the more amazing that they would leave the church and STILL say that they know they saw the plates.
that is ELEVEN testimonies! that is a lot of people
@jaromsmiss --yes I believe that some may have seen visions of angels perhaps with such golden plates, but from what I am reading in your history, these were visions of the plates in the woods. [History of the Church, Vol. 1, pp. 52-53] They also believed in evil spirits, magic seer rocks, strange languages, other superstitions, The rest that came later were embellishments or not willing to eat crow. back then a man;s reputation was his word, so to debunk your own word was to be a fool.
@jaromsmiss here is a quote from one of Smith brothers William---"When the interviewer asked if he didn't want to remove the cloth and see the bare plates, William replied, "No, for father had just asked if he might not be permitted to do so, and Joseph, putting his hand on them said; 'No, I am instructed not to show them to any one. If I do, I will transgress and lose them again.' ... "[Zion's Ensign, p. 6, January 13, 1894, cited in Church of Christ broadside.]
Oliver cowdery, on his DEATHBED, his last words were to follow the teachings of the Book of Mormon and if they did they would reunited in heaven. Lucy. P. young, his half-sister said this is what happened, and she was there.
Martin Harris last testimony again----------"The Book of Mormon is no fake. I know what I know. I have seen what I have seen and I have heard what I have heard. I have seen the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon is written. An angel appeared to me and others and testified to the truthfulness of the record, and had I been willing to have
@jaromsmiss@jaromsmiss The duped always try to cover their own tracts, which is another reason for all the rather interesting embellishments later on, Its just that there was a lot of criss crossing going on in the story from one to the other, which is why I try to stick to 1827-1829- statements from them and others who heard from them. The truth is, the religious are so easily swade, their speeches are like liquid. they say one thing one day but change the specifics of the story the next.
perjured myself and sworn falsely to the testimony I now bear I could have been a rich man, but I could not have testified other than I have done and am now doing for these things are true"
when you tell us that Joseph Smith brought forth the book of mormon...you ve got that right, its his book, (although there is evidence that he had help from Rigdon, Pratt and Cowdrey to get it done...the word print analysis shows their hand was in it as well, I believe that these men colaborated together, with the same scheme to build their own church out of it. and did so by claiming false claims. and this is the only reason why there is no evidence to show on its behalf --it was all a put on.
together! the first two wordprint studies Proved that it was impossible for him to have done it without at least a good 12-15 people, and the last one (done by a Biased ex-member) only proved the chances of him producing it even with the help of 2-3 others are very, very slim to impossible.
you need to find some better anti-mormon websites if your going to say what your saying LOL
@jaromsmiss ---I dont believe that the BoM contains anything about the real life and death of Jesus Christ, If there are any simularities to Jesus, its only an poor imatation and a bad one at one at that. If anything the kid simply copied from the King James gospel of Matthew. which is to say that to reinvent Jesus and write it into his own novel is not hard to do, for it had been done before by other men, so it not surprising that a backyard rock in his hat thumper could do the samething here.
@jaromsmiss --- From what I read and from 80 affadavits from his nieghbors, & those who knew JSmith, the picture of him was that of a charlatan and a tall story teller. Smith needed just a few to sign the paper he prewrote for them to sign. Well it not uncommon for people to be taken in to sign something esp. when they were his chums. but It was also known how he had 4 signed the page first, ie his own family, then when the Whitmers saw it, I believe, were simply duped to follow along with it.
@jaromsmiss We see that Heavens Gate group believed in what their leaders were teaching them, and had all the faith in the world in what Mr Applewhite was telling them, even to the taking of their own lives. Therefore believing in religious man made fantasies without evidence to substantiate it is both fool hardy and dangerous. This is why the Bible has become the standard with regards the many teachings about many gods, hearing spirits, seeing visions, angels, etc, see 1 Jn 4:1, 2 Peter 2:1
So you believe that God is limited to the bible? he is not. He can do what he wants.
Anyways, My concept totally destroyed what your concept is, and you just keep beating around the bush. You repeat the same thing over and over. You cant prove to me that christ atoned for my sins. You cant, so stop.
@jaromsmiss Yes Jesus can and did atone for you sins...lol---all you have to do is accept it, else why would there be this discussion unless you are in doubt about why Jesus gave his life for to save us all from ourselves? If we come to him, we experience his love and forgiveness, that is why he died, to save us from the wrath of God. St.Paul said Rom. 5:15 "so also is the free gift", meaning that you cannot earn it, you didnt pay for it, Jesus did on the cross at calvery.
@jaromsmiss The witnesses of Jesus never wavered from their testimony about who Jesus was, and all of them died martr deaths for his name sake. but the BoM witnesses left the Church, restated that Smith was a false prophet, spoke out against Smith, or were excommunicated for doing so, said that they only saw those things in induced visions, were over taken by persuation to sign it. Their stories were inconsistant and contradictory and therefore the whole thing is doubtful of honest reporting.
first off for you to get at the witnesses of the BOM for leaving the church is funny, because Judas did just the same. The witnesses also never denied that they had seen the plates. get your facts together.
The witnesses of the plates were all known as men of integrity and of respect. How do u get eleven men to all say that they saw the plates? Thats a good amount of people to be witnesses of them. they indeed did suffer persecution for testifying of what they saw.
@jaromsmiss None of the Whitmers stayed with Mormons, and John and David even called Smith a false prophet.These are the facts, I already gave you the YT vid, did you see it yet? "The Book of Mormon Translation (by Jim Catlin)" it clearly visits the problem of the 11 witnesses. I believe that it was all just a perpetrated hoax. nothing more.
David whitmer had his testimony put on his gravestone. I already gave you the LAST testimony of one of the other three also. Go back and view it.
there have been a number of people who have said that these men were very good men, and me who had integrity. They were also intelligent, according to other people.
Mormons dont believe that we can earn of salvation in any way. Mormons believe that salvation is a free gift to those who accept christ as their savior and exercise true faith in him.
Do you understand what TRUE FAITH is? true faith requires works. It takes more than just saying "I believe in christ".
True faith produces works. Works are an outward expression of our faith. Its obvious that christ asked us to Follow him and to do his will. This requires works.
if we accept christ as our personal savior and exercise True faith in him, we will be eligible for his gift, which is free to those who Truly believe.
you ask why I even bring up the point that christ atoned for yours and mines sins, when the reason I am is because is because you need to understand that it takes FAITH, and this only to accept that he did do this, we cant prove it. SMH
by the way, the wordprint studies DOESNT PROVE that he got help from anybody!? get your facts
@jaromsmiss ---What you have to understand is what is a sky-hook religion, something that is grasped at by the toe and is based solely from the imagination of one man, their ideas are extreme by any length of the human mind. demanding that you believe in them. is a false spirit. The reality is, these religious men are all about is destortion of the truth, This is what a false prophet is all about, they appear bold on the scene, but contradict what God has already established in the scriptures.
@jaromsmiss -- This is now a mute point, since you and I both believe in the testimony of the Apostles who witnessed the life of Christ. Its what they wrote about Christ that bares witness of who he was, see 1 John 2:2, Romans 5:8-9 ,1 Tim 1:15. Again, its hard to imagine how Jesus could have fullfilled all those 326 prophecies, (plus 30 others that are related to the promises of God for salvation) Therefoe Jesus was indeed the Messiah and the Son of God.
@jaromsmiss Are you telling me that Christ died for nothing? Without Jesus there is no Christianity. There is no salvation, There is no hope for eternal life, There is no walk with God. for without God life would be meaningless and void.
Ok well Isaiah 53 6 is only one place where Christ fullfiled old Testament prophecies, btw the apostles used OT scriptures to show how that Jesus was the messiah when sharing with the Jews. which is what this is all about. Who was Jesus.
How do u not understand what Im saying? its not that hard to understand.
your whole point means nothing, because of my concept. I dont understand how you are confused by what Im saying.
If i was an atheist, would what your saying convince me? No it would not in anyway. you cant prove to me that christ atoned for my sins. You cant prove to me of christ teachings or the afterlife. etc....
@jaromsmiss Sin? Sin separates us from God, So your argument is circular, to prove Christ is to prove that there is a need for Christ. Sins = separation from God = need for a savior. therefore Jesus = remission of sins = relationship with God. Christ can only benifit those who come to God by him, but the athiest does not believe in God, so the argument is something entirely different, unless we can convince them what is sin and why they need a savior. They first have to know that there is a God.
so just because Jesus christ was a man on the earth is automatic proof? it is not proof. Many atheists think that he was a lier and a madman. again, there is absolutely no way to proof that Jesus christs teachings are true. It takes faith and faith only. My point is that what you call "evidences" are not evidences at all. When all is said and done, faith will be all that is left.
@jaromsmiss The LIE also needs you to have faith in it. Think of it, a group of people called Heaven's Gate had plenty of faith in a so called space ship following a brightly lit comet called Hale-Bopp, Well they all commited suicide to leave the Earth to go with the Alien, Such leaders like Marshall Applewhite are telling people lies, so it wasnt that they lacked faith in what they believed. You can say you have faith in what ever you want but faith itself doesnt make it true.
its funny that you say that, because when it gets right down to it this same concept goes with your faith that Christ atoned for your sins. Can you literally prove that he has done it? could an atheist believe you through proof of this? no, because it cant be proven.
just because you can show me artifacts and writings that Jesus lived means nothing for the case that he atoned for mine and yours sins.
do u understand where Im coming from Rypaul? im trying to get you to admit that it indeed takes an external source to really know jesus atoned for mine and your sins.
stop with the whole prophecy stuff. That is in no way evidence. Why? because the prophecies from the old testament are prophecies that cant be proven. I dont understand how you dont get this. You cant PROVE that christ atoned for my sins. There is no way around that Rypaul
@jaromsmiss Only the son of God could have fullfilled those prophecies. no one even could have come even closer to fullfilling 8 important ones. Bible prophecies are the only prophecies that have clearly come to pass with regard to who Jesus was. Again, unless you can show how Jesus was fictional or the gospels were embellished, or the whole thing is a man made fantasy story and a lie, then you may have an argument, but if Jesus was the son of God, hence it follows his own proof.
"unless you can show how Jesus was fictional or the gospels were embellished, or the whole thing is a man made fantasy story and a lie, then you may have an argument"
The burden of proof is on you. for example, if I were to tell you that my dog is elvis pressley reincarnated , you would ask me how? It would be ridicolous for me to say to you "proof that my dog ISNT elvis pressley ". Do you understand what the burden of proof means now?
@boydslittlefactory What your saying is since a movie is false and I can still feel the spirit, can the same be for the BOM? such as If I feel good when I read it but its fictional like a movie?
I dont open the possiblity in any way. The reason why is because I prayed specifically about if its true record or not. I got a specific answer.
If I would pray to God and ask if the movie "bambi" was true I would not get confirmation that it is true.
I freely admit that I could be mistaken in my beliefs. You are very quick to dismiss any idea that you could be wrong - what would be required for you to admit that you could be wrong about mormonism?
@boydslittlefactory What would be required for me to admit that I am wrong? I cant. the reason is because I know that i have recieved a spiritual witness and I cant deny it.
I could never get paul the apostle to reject his testimony of the savior, and so I have no problem saying that nothing can change my beliefs either.
I have prayed specifically about the BOM and have recieved a witness, a promised one.
the spirit testifies and tell us what is true. If I go out and rake someones leaves I am going to feel really good after. Why? because the spirit motivates and helps us to know and to do what is right.
You said that because you had a burning in the bosom feeling you "knew" the Book of Mormon was true. It is odd, but when I was an active member I had similar feelings that I considered to be spiritual feelings in church meetings, while singing hymns, listening to testimonies or talks, but also sometimes felt the same when watching fictional movies, such as Avatar, etc.
That confirmed to me that emotional feelings cannot be relied upon to distinguish either truth or things of God.
The Mormon is much like a man who comes to the table and boasts and raves that he has a full house, but in actuality all hes got absolutly nothing, not even a pair of duces. its that sad.
"The Mormon is much like a man who comes to the table and boasts and raves that he has a full house, but in actuality all hes got absolutly nothing"
and this is coming from a christian? a christian who believes in the bible simply because of physical evidence and nothing else. You have already admitted that the only reason you are a christian is because of the physical evidence. What about faith? christs teachings were of this. shoot, God himself takes faith, no proof for him.
John 3:16-17 the gospel of Christ in a nutshell is "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever should believe in Him should not perish, but has everlasting life...for God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world but so that the world through him might be saved. "
@jaromsmiss ---no I really am a scientist. sorry but its my education and my advocation. being a Christian doesnt change that..or visa versa..I have complete harmonie with my understanding of science as well as the walking by faith in Christ.
@jaromsmiss so?...they simply need to know who God is thats all, God can open their minds...they need Christ too. so do the cults who say that they are the only ones who are saved, and everybody else is wrong. eh?
@jaromsmiss---ok so how come when I read The book of Mormon all I see is that its just plain fictional nonsense?
Fiction is something flutuitious, made up...has no evidence of itself, so Mormon I have to ask you ...what if your wrong, and it is as fictional as Alice in Wonderland? Should I put my trust in something that is merely a novel? or just simply take your word on it?
well my atheist friends think the bible is downright dumb and ridicolous too. this doesnt mean they are right Rypaul.
Look man, first off, the teachings of Jesus are against evidence. He taught faith, and faith only. What did he ask of people when he healed them? He didnt have to prove anything to them. They had to have faith in him to be healed.
second, you mentioned if I should take my word on it. lol MY POINT has been against this ALL along! I have been telling you to not do
@jaromsmiss Jesus himself is the evidence.. 326 prophecies, so its not about blind faith. God fullfilling his word is evidence..so is science. believe it or not. the universe just didnt pop out of nowhere. and life didnt start itself, so there is reason to believe in a Creator.
your not understanding my point when it comes to the prophesies. I have stated my case TWICE and you just repeat the same thing man. the prophesy stuff is no proof at all because its prophesying of stuff that WECANT PROVE!
"well if fullfilled prophecies dont mean that God said it. then I dont know my Bible. lol"
I am sure you do know your bible, if you study it then you probably do.
Im not trying to insult your intelligence at all. I am saying the same thing over and over though. I really hope you understand what I am saying, because what I am saying makes total sense and what you have said is so weak its lopsided brother
this, but to ask God, (your God if that makes you more comfortable) if the book is true. First read from it, with an open heart, and ask God. Ask an external source, just like you HAVE to do to truly know if the bible is the word of GOD>
"Probabilities from Peter Stoner in Science Speaks (Moody Press, 1963) to show that coincidence is ruled out by the science of probability. Stoner says that by using the modern science of probability in reference to eight prophecies, 'we find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 10^17 (that is 1 to the 17th power)."
you dont get my point. Can you prove that Jesus atoned for you? the prophecies of jesus is great. They prophesy that he would come and suffer for all mankind, and because of him we could have eternal life.
BUT, it the burdon of proof is on me and you, because we are the ones who teach and preach to people about jesus.
How can you proof that jesus really atoned for u and me, and that he was risen and sent back to heaven?
@jaromsmiss oh come on now...you are trying to pull the feathers off a rabbit...how is fullfilling 326 OT prophecies not meaning that Jesus came into this world to save us from God's wrath concerning our iniquities? I mean one thing is not impossible for Christ to do fullfilled hundreds of messianic prophecies? and that this is somehow not the proof that the was the Son of God?
why do u not get what Im saying! lol its not that hard!
look. in the OT it says that Jesus will come and suffer and die for all people, so that we can have eternal life and have forever joy and happiness. Thats cool.
now in the New testament, it says that he did this.
the atheists would laugh at us right about now. thats considered proof? we cant proof that any more than we can proof God exists come on man/
how can we prove that there is an after life? we cant proof it of course. it takes Faith, and faith only. You cant tell me that because of artifacts that this is proof. You cant say that because a prophecy says it will happen that it is true. This is my point all along brother.
At some point, it requires a spiritual witness that these things are true. IT takes FAITH, and FAITH only. evidence only takes you so far Rypaul, there is a point where faith must be put in the equation.
U said earlier that you wouldnt believe in the bible if it didnt have any evidence. is this still your stance on the matter?
again, just because the bible prophecies that jesus will atone for the world, and it says that he did atone for the world after the prophesy, doesnt mean that its true.
I takes something else to determine this. an external source. the spirit of the almighty.
Just as my faith in the bible is based off of a personal spiritual witness. Just as I know that christ atoned for me because Of the spirit of God, the same is for the BOM brother.
Having said that, the Bible supports our faith, not becomes our faith...our faith in God is based upon our belief that God is eternal, any printed material is not God, Faith is the foundation of our walk with God. because we can place this faith in other gods, or in things in the world, or even in ourselves, or in other men's works but true faith is a walk with the living God. himself, this is what the Bible teaches.
I would have to say that we are very fortunate to have such a bible, that we have a bible. yes its very important, because of its teaching, about the history and church of God. but no ...there are plenty of Christians in China who dont have a bible but are true believers. so really the Christian Faith is not dependant on the Bible, but the other way around the Bible remains in the world because Christian did have such faith in God.
@jaromsmiss--- We dont pray to God for instance to find out if we should kill someone, or it we should steal. and to find out about what is a false prophet well Deut 18:22 gives us a test for a false prophet...but however I will say this, we should pray to God for direction, in this life. for the answer from God is to help us understand his will. not whether a book is true or not. that would be tempting the Lord to give you a sign.
ok sense you have said you only depend on evidence for the bible, then how can you question that it takes a spiritual witness to determine if the bible is true? did you know that the Quran says its the word of God also?
The fact that the bible says its the word of God is simply not enough. There must be some sort of spiritual witness to the person for him or her to know if the book is true.
Any body could write a book and say that they have the authoritative words that it is true. doesnt mean anything. just because the bible or Quran says its the word of God doesnt mean that its automatically true. Ultimatly its up to that individual to recieve some sort of spiritual witness to determine if its true.
@jaromsmiss like I mentioned before...Jesus fullfilled 326 messianic prophesies concerning his ministry...this one man Jesus of Nazereth, was the only man on this earth who could have done this, this is what makes the Bible so complete.
its funny you keep bringing up the prophecies, because do you have proof that jesus atoned for you? do you have proof that jesus was risen, and then went to heaven? Many atheists, such as hitchens and dawkins felt that the whole "prophecy" evidence is too vague and can be answered in other ways.
"so yes you are right, any man can write "a book"."
you just proved my point brother. I feel that your going in circles when it comes to my question of how to figure out if a book is true. IT indeed does take an external source, it takes the spirit of God to know.
The BOM give a specific promise brother . Pray and ask God if it is true. If the BOM said that it was true just because it said so, nobody would believe it because it has a lack of evidence.
millions of people around the world dont believe in the BOM just because it says so, or any other reason other than the fact that they have recieved a personal spiritual witness that cant be discribed as anything else other than Incredible and outerbody.
@jaromsmiss...ok ...lets put it this way...if there were no manuscripts of the bible and no cities, and no history, and none of its people found anywhere...then I would have to dismiss it...okay...hows that?
Where does the faith come in for you? is it because of the evidence of the bible, or is because you have prayed about the bible and recieved a spiritual witness about it?
@jaromsmiss Faith belongs to walking with God. but where works of antiquity matter...using our brains is what is afoot not religious illusion. or feelings, reading books we are to use our noggen, because there are many liars out there. and all lies find themselves out, very simply, there will be nothing there in their words to support it.
The Bible says "and the Lord hateth every false way" proverbs
@jaromsmiss --- really in my mind, there is no question about where the bible came from...thats the point. we see the evidence, but with Smith's storybook there is nothing, not one city, not one steel sword. not one location found, not any villages...not one person place or event has ever been found associated with the story of the book of mormon.
see youtube vid. "DNA vs the Book of Mormon" this documentary is about where the Native Americans came from, a good study about this issue
@Jaromsmiss--Did you know that there is this guy name Ammon in the Book of Mormon story that cuts off the arms of the Lamanites? And how is it that the spirit entices Nephi to decapitate the head of one of his own countrymen, Laban to get the plates? Where did steel swords come from? How is it that Shiz was still breathing with his head cut off? And there are these many battles with horses and chariots, men fighting with sentars, swords everywhere!
@jaromsmiss ---Christians believe that there is only one God---that is-- only one Lord God.[not two.] and that this God is an eternal Spirit. (not 3 spirits).
God always was God. and is the only God.
Jesus because he fullfilled 326 messianic prophecies. only Jesus could have done this.
The Bible came by way of antiquity. the people of the Bible were Jews
Many Bible cities. artifacts, thousands of clay tablets, other ruins, etc are found and there are 24000 manuscripts of the Bible!
@jaromsmiss ok..so if the Bible is false, how do you explain how Jesus fullfilled 326 prophecies about the Messiah?
Psalm 22 for instance David says in prayer "it contains the words of Christ on the cross jesus and david are saying the same thing "My God My God why has thou forsaken me!" and "They piece my hands and my feet" and "my tongue cleaves in my mouth, and they cast lots for my garment" this is obviously talking about Jesus' crucifixion. David was never crucified.
@jaromsmiss cities found is no evidence??? arifacts found is not evidence? that we know who the Jews are is not evidence? that other nations have written about these people is not evidence? arp?
@jaromsmiss ---hypothetically? What for?...hey man, just prove the bible is not of God...get to the chase. Will you? I think you are barking up the wrong tree here, the bible is a history, we both know this. so really I dont see your point.
but however, to allow this conversation to end somewhere...if you can show me that the bible is false..hey, I am all ears and eyes...always have been. please by all means share it.
@jaromsmiss---I am not here to prove the existance or none existance of God, this is not the topic here...but rather the validity of Joseph Smith claims what he said about his storybook...big difference. but upon reading the actual testimonies, I can see that there never was any golden book, Smith simply had them see visions of it. and get them to sign a prewritten page...real slick.
@jaromsmiss cont..--" I advised him by all means to open the trunk and examine its contents, ... His reply was, that. if he opened the trunk, the "curse of heaven would descend upon him and his children.' "However," added he, "I will agree to open it, provided you take the 'curse of Heaven' upon yourself, for having advised me to the step." I told him I was perfectly willing to do so." {Letter of Prof. Charlse Anthon)
@jaromsmiss---here is something I find very interesting in Professor Anthon's 2nd letter to Rev Colt ---Professor Anthon to Harris
"I then asked him how he could be so foolish as to sell his farm and engage in this affair; and requested him to tell me if the plates were really of gold. In answer to this latter inquiry, he (Harris) said, that he had never seen the plates themselves, which were carefully locked up in a trunk, but that he had the trunk in his possession..." cont...
I feel like Im being interrogated! I have answered many of your questions, and they are not good enough for you. It doesnt really matter what I could say, you would In know way believe. When it gets right down to it, we can pick at every detail of the BOM. There still is no proof that it is false. You have so many questions! If I answer one you have 3 more and so on.
There are pages upon pages of anti-mormon writings. JS has been called crazy, and a false prophet. He we always be debated. people say he wrote the BOM, that he had a big imagination and so on.
When all is said and done, I cant sit here and proof to you the BOM is true. I can answer little individual questions about this or that, but you will never believe unless you have an open heart, study the book, and pray to your father in heaven if it is really true
I cant prove that God exists either. religon takes Faith. Did jesus atone for my sins? this takes faith. you cant prove that this happened. Look Rypaul5217, all that Im saying is to go to God for the answers your seeking.
@jaromsmiss --- depends on which God you mean. in Mormonism there are many gods, in fact Elohim is only one of many gods, and all these gods are men with many wives...so which god are you talking about?
Listen -- simply look up Peter Ingersoil affadavit 1833 read what he said, word for word, and see whether or not there is something odd going on with Joseph Smith and his golden book thing...This was a man who was with Joe Smith and quoted him as saying thus...his sworn testimony is signed before a judge, by oath...Peter said that Joseph Smith told him that "he never had such a book."
You should read all of it. there is more to what Smith said here..
@jaromsmiss Joseph Smith's "and it came to pass" narrative is unusually redundant, for example see 4 Nephi 1:6 ..here Joseph wrote about how many years have past...well why should someone be ingraving metal about such years if nothing happened in such and such years?
@jaromsmiss --- Try counting the number of times Joseph Smith uses "and it came to pass that" in 1 Nephi ch 16: v 1 - 35 I bet you will throw up once you see it. I mean common, who but an 7th grader writes like this?
@jaromsmiss --- David Whitmer describes the manner in which each sentence came ...Smith he said would see one symbol ---which showed him the line for which it meant...so how in the world could the line Smith saw have a mistake of grammer in it?
if somebody told me to write down what they told me, Does that mean that I will always spell correctly? These were normal people that scribed for JS. Anybody can make mistakes as a scribe.
@jaromsmiss Here...There are a number of web sites that show the chronology of Smith's life when and where the translation of the book of mormon took place and with whom ...all the sources you need is there...google = history of Joseph Smith timeline-chronology. charts with references are available.
@jaromsmiss --- So are you saying its wrong to study the history the affadavits and the journals and read 19 century newspapers and other opinions, to know what actually happened back then? I can studying anything...I ve done it most of my life. its nothing really. To be honest with you, I dont like psuedo information. but I do like to get my finger nails in the dirt, and see what is being hidden behind the curtain. and its very rewarding, let me tell you.
@jaromsmiss--Moreover, the original manuscript (found buried in Navoo --rain parched) had 4 scribes, with 4 different handwritings, and upon different sized papers. (One of the scribe handwriting is unknown) Emma, being the 1st scribe for him in Dec. 1827, but after 116 pages were lost in March of 1828. Harris and Smith went back to work, and Cowdrey later copied Harris's pages. Its the 4 separate handwritings that points to more than just one scribe over a period of time.
of course there were different scribes. I agree. your point? just because its different people doesnt mean that there are not going to be grammer mistakes
do u know much about wordprints? wordprints are the writing styles of every individial. It is as different as DNA.
There are over 15 different authors in the book Of Mormon. They have been all proven to have a different writing style. If Joseph smith were to have wrote the book himself, he would have had to switch up his style 15 different times. thats impossible.
@Jaromsmiss---by your argument, the same logic can be used, no golden book, it follows then---
1) The book of mormon is fiction,
2) Then Joseph Smith was a false prophet
3) Then the Mormon Church is false and missleading
help me out here...here is Satan who transformed into an angel of light, like unto an angel from heaven...out pops a gold book out of nowhere about a mysterious people that no body can find and its true without question.
Yes I agree totally. If the BOM is false, the JS is false, and the church is totally false. I dont think that you understand my point. This mysterieous book that you are referring to asks you to pray specifically about it, and ask if its true from God himself.
This book is no piece of cake either...it is an entire of a people, complete with valcanoe eruptions, wars, and doctrines that are taught. it came forth in 65 days, over 520 pages a history.
You said you could never admit your beliefs are wrong because you know that you received an answer from God. The problem is that devotees of any other religion could, and often do make the exact same claim.
Can you respond to this point, which is elaborated very well in the third and fourth foundational falsehood of creationism (videos) by fellow youtube user Aronra?
boydslittlefactory 2 weeks ago
@boydslittlefactory
They do, but no other religon has the book of mormon to confirm of its truth. Every other christian denomination has the bible, and so the mormons. But the LDS church also has more scripture with a specific promise to ask God if it is true. We are the ONLY church who has a book with a specific promise in it to do this.
jaromsmiss 2 weeks ago
@boydslittlefactory
your concept is true with many churchs, except for mormonism, due to what sets us apart.
Did you say you are religous or an atheist?
jaromsmiss 2 weeks ago
@jaromsmiss In my experience Moroni's promise did not work - it is vague about how the holy ghost will reveal knowledge, and says nothing about repeatedly asking. If one tries hard enough, they can have a religious experience and convince themselves that any particular religion is true.
What did you think of the 3rd video in the series I recommended?
I used to be religious until I examined my beliefs and realized they were not justified.
boydslittlefactory 2 weeks ago
@boydslittlefactory
let us turn to our bibles, read 1 Corinthians 12:3
" that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord but by the Holy Ghost"
also, let us review what christ said to Peter after peter said that jesus was the Son of the living God Matthew 16: 17
"for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my father which is in heaven"
It must take revelation to know if something is true, spiritually. We could debate evidences all day, but after all is said and done,
jaromsmiss 2 weeks ago
The above information is not convincing to anyone who believes the Bible is a work of historical fiction. The Book of Mormon is even less convincing, as it doesn't even appear to be historical.
boydslittlefactory 2 weeks ago
@boydslittlefactory
True faith comes from the spirit of the living God.
You say that anyone can convince themselves that any religon is true, maybe for people who are ignorant and sadly too simple minded, but for anybody who has the option to chose among literally thousands of different denominations, and truly wants to know which church has the most accurate teachings, it takes a sincere heart and even effort of the one who prays to God for truth. Im here to tell you that i have
jaromsmiss 2 weeks ago
@boydslittlefactory
experienced a spiritual witness from my father in heaven through his spirit, and if I did then u can too. It took lots of prayer and a heart that was sincere. It did not come fast, but I recieved my answer and i will never be able to deny it.
There is no other book in the world with a specific promise to ask the man who knows.
jaromsmiss 2 weeks ago
@jaromsmiss I do not see any reliable method of distinguishing between emotional or faith-induced experiences and what mormons claim to be the Holy Ghost.
I might be persuaded to accept the argument if there was actual correlation between observed reality and religious teachings. After many years of investigation on my part, evidence indicates that religion resembles fairy tales more than actual reality.
boydslittlefactory 2 weeks ago
@boydslittlefactory
Im sorry for ya, you are one of the many who are lead astray.
sorry bout that.
jaromsmiss 2 weeks ago
@jaromsmiss Do you realize that saying you feel sorry for someone because of their beliefs comes across as annoying, arrogant & condescending? No offense taken, however as I understand the doctrinal conditioning behind that perspective.
boydslittlefactory 2 weeks ago
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jaromsmiss 1 week ago
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Rypaul5217 2 weeks ago
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Rypaul5217 2 weeks ago
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@jaromsmiss well J Smith was always redundant throughout his book; Its the same basic tripe--boring, like in 4 Ne 1:6; I mean, isnt this passage just a bit too discriptive? lol..Where is any history with being rather tripe about it? Why bother to waste precious space? Why not---not write on the gold metal until something actually does happen? You have to admit that this passage lacks practical sense, and, this sort of thing also occurs in 3 Ne 5:7
Rypaul5217 2 weeks ago
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Rypaul5217 2 weeks ago
@jaromsmiss ---according to Harris, "I never saw the gold plates, only in a visionary or entranced state....In about three days I went into the woods to pray that I might see the plates. While praying I passed into a state of entrancement, and in that state I saw the angel and the plates." (Anthony Metcalf, Ten Years Before the Mast, n.d., microfilm copy, p. 70-71).
Rypaul5217 3 weeks ago
@jaromsmiss 3 witnesses were that of his own house hold. his father and 2 brothers would sign anything for their own brother.Harris went to pray about the plates by himself to see a vision of them, was separated from the rest of the group. Later, it is believed that Smith had Cowdrey makeshift up some metal plates, Again not a very hard thing to do, stacked iron steel plates, keeping them covered with a cloth etc, Cowdrey also was once a blacksmith, and known for his counterfeiting practices.
Rypaul5217 3 weeks ago
@jaromsmiss I do believe that David Whitmer did have a vision (self induced or demon of light, or other mystical spirits, I dont know) He believed in a book with many Bible passages, so his religiouosity is the reason for recieving it.This is not uncommon, many ex-members when leaving the LDS organization, still believe the book of Mormon to be the word of God, including the Tanners, till they studied it further and found that it was only a counterfeit, a man made fabrication and a complete lie.
Rypaul5217 3 weeks ago
@Rypaul5217
of course many ex-members didnt deny the BOM because its TRUE! lol
The book of mormon still stands as a witness of the savior and nothing has brought it down.
none of the eleven witnesses ever denied that they had seen the plates, even up to there DEATH.
jaromsmiss 3 weeks ago
@jaromsmiss The story goes that while Smith, Cowdrey and David and Harris all when out to the woods to pray about the plates. Two said they saw something in a vision. (Cowdrey I believe was in on the gag) Harris when he wasnt seeing anything, went out alone into the wooded area away from everybody to pray, hence came back saying he saw the plates, (ie his dream as well) So where the heck were the so called physical plates if Harris saw them in a different separate location from the other two?
Rypaul5217 3 weeks ago
@Rypaul5217
none of the witnesses ever denied that they had seen the plates. For you to say that they did is a lie. I have given you the testimonies of the three witnesses at their deathbed.
some of the witnesses did leave the church, I dont deny that. But it makes it all the more amazing that they would leave the church and STILL say that they know they saw the plates.
that is ELEVEN testimonies! that is a lot of people
jaromsmiss 3 weeks ago
@jaromsmiss --yes I believe that some may have seen visions of angels perhaps with such golden plates, but from what I am reading in your history, these were visions of the plates in the woods. [History of the Church, Vol. 1, pp. 52-53] They also believed in evil spirits, magic seer rocks, strange languages, other superstitions, The rest that came later were embellishments or not willing to eat crow. back then a man;s reputation was his word, so to debunk your own word was to be a fool.
Rypaul5217 3 weeks ago
@jaromsmiss here is a quote from one of Smith brothers William---"When the interviewer asked if he didn't want to remove the cloth and see the bare plates, William replied, "No, for father had just asked if he might not be permitted to do so, and Joseph, putting his hand on them said; 'No, I am instructed not to show them to any one. If I do, I will transgress and lose them again.' ... "[Zion's Ensign, p. 6, January 13, 1894, cited in Church of Christ broadside.]
Rypaul5217 3 weeks ago
@Rypaul5217
Oliver cowdery, on his DEATHBED, his last words were to follow the teachings of the Book of Mormon and if they did they would reunited in heaven. Lucy. P. young, his half-sister said this is what happened, and she was there.
jaromsmiss 3 weeks ago
@Rypaul5217
Martin Harris last testimony again----------"The Book of Mormon is no fake. I know what I know. I have seen what I have seen and I have heard what I have heard. I have seen the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon is written. An angel appeared to me and others and testified to the truthfulness of the record, and had I been willing to have
jaromsmiss 3 weeks ago
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Rypaul5217 3 weeks ago
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@jaromsmiss @jaromsmiss The duped always try to cover their own tracts, which is another reason for all the rather interesting embellishments later on, Its just that there was a lot of criss crossing going on in the story from one to the other, which is why I try to stick to 1827-1829- statements from them and others who heard from them. The truth is, the religious are so easily swade, their speeches are like liquid. they say one thing one day but change the specifics of the story the next.
Rypaul5217 3 weeks ago
@Rypaul5217
perjured myself and sworn falsely to the testimony I now bear I could have been a rich man, but I could not have testified other than I have done and am now doing for these things are true"
jaromsmiss 3 weeks ago
when you tell us that Joseph Smith brought forth the book of mormon...you ve got that right, its his book, (although there is evidence that he had help from Rigdon, Pratt and Cowdrey to get it done...the word print analysis shows their hand was in it as well, I believe that these men colaborated together, with the same scheme to build their own church out of it. and did so by claiming false claims. and this is the only reason why there is no evidence to show on its behalf --it was all a put on.
Rypaul5217 3 weeks ago
@Rypaul5217
together! the first two wordprint studies Proved that it was impossible for him to have done it without at least a good 12-15 people, and the last one (done by a Biased ex-member) only proved the chances of him producing it even with the help of 2-3 others are very, very slim to impossible.
you need to find some better anti-mormon websites if your going to say what your saying LOL
jaromsmiss 3 weeks ago
@jaromsmiss ---I dont believe that the BoM contains anything about the real life and death of Jesus Christ, If there are any simularities to Jesus, its only an poor imatation and a bad one at one at that. If anything the kid simply copied from the King James gospel of Matthew. which is to say that to reinvent Jesus and write it into his own novel is not hard to do, for it had been done before by other men, so it not surprising that a backyard rock in his hat thumper could do the samething here.
Rypaul5217 3 weeks ago
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@jaromsmiss --- From what I read and from 80 affadavits from his nieghbors, & those who knew JSmith, the picture of him was that of a charlatan and a tall story teller. Smith needed just a few to sign the paper he prewrote for them to sign. Well it not uncommon for people to be taken in to sign something esp. when they were his chums. but It was also known how he had 4 signed the page first, ie his own family, then when the Whitmers saw it, I believe, were simply duped to follow along with it.
Rypaul5217 3 weeks ago
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Rypaul5217 3 weeks ago
@jaromsmiss We see that Heavens Gate group believed in what their leaders were teaching them, and had all the faith in the world in what Mr Applewhite was telling them, even to the taking of their own lives. Therefore believing in religious man made fantasies without evidence to substantiate it is both fool hardy and dangerous. This is why the Bible has become the standard with regards the many teachings about many gods, hearing spirits, seeing visions, angels, etc, see 1 Jn 4:1, 2 Peter 2:1
Rypaul5217 3 weeks ago
@Rypaul5217
So you believe that God is limited to the bible? he is not. He can do what he wants.
Anyways, My concept totally destroyed what your concept is, and you just keep beating around the bush. You repeat the same thing over and over. You cant prove to me that christ atoned for my sins. You cant, so stop.
jaromsmiss 3 weeks ago
@jaromsmiss Yes Jesus can and did atone for you sins...lol---all you have to do is accept it, else why would there be this discussion unless you are in doubt about why Jesus gave his life for to save us all from ourselves? If we come to him, we experience his love and forgiveness, that is why he died, to save us from the wrath of God. St.Paul said Rom. 5:15 "so also is the free gift", meaning that you cannot earn it, you didnt pay for it, Jesus did on the cross at calvery.
Rypaul5217 3 weeks ago
@Rypaul5217
Joseph smith brought forth the Book of Mormon, and it still stands today as a witness of Christ.
I suggest you get a spiritual witness of the savior and not just believe because someone said so.
by the way, I think its funny that you say that christ had witnesses when the BOM did too lol
jaromsmiss 3 weeks ago
@jaromsmiss The witnesses of Jesus never wavered from their testimony about who Jesus was, and all of them died martr deaths for his name sake. but the BoM witnesses left the Church, restated that Smith was a false prophet, spoke out against Smith, or were excommunicated for doing so, said that they only saw those things in induced visions, were over taken by persuation to sign it. Their stories were inconsistant and contradictory and therefore the whole thing is doubtful of honest reporting.
Rypaul5217 3 weeks ago
@Rypaul5217
first off for you to get at the witnesses of the BOM for leaving the church is funny, because Judas did just the same. The witnesses also never denied that they had seen the plates. get your facts together.
The witnesses of the plates were all known as men of integrity and of respect. How do u get eleven men to all say that they saw the plates? Thats a good amount of people to be witnesses of them. they indeed did suffer persecution for testifying of what they saw.
jaromsmiss 3 weeks ago
@jaromsmiss None of the Whitmers stayed with Mormons, and John and David even called Smith a false prophet.These are the facts, I already gave you the YT vid, did you see it yet? "The Book of Mormon Translation (by Jim Catlin)" it clearly visits the problem of the 11 witnesses. I believe that it was all just a perpetrated hoax. nothing more.
Rypaul5217 3 weeks ago
@Rypaul5217
David whitmer had his testimony put on his gravestone. I already gave you the LAST testimony of one of the other three also. Go back and view it.
there have been a number of people who have said that these men were very good men, and me who had integrity. They were also intelligent, according to other people.
jaromsmiss 3 weeks ago
@Rypaul5217
Mormons dont believe that we can earn of salvation in any way. Mormons believe that salvation is a free gift to those who accept christ as their savior and exercise true faith in him.
Do you understand what TRUE FAITH is? true faith requires works. It takes more than just saying "I believe in christ".
True faith produces works. Works are an outward expression of our faith. Its obvious that christ asked us to Follow him and to do his will. This requires works.
jaromsmiss 3 weeks ago
@Rypaul5217
if we accept christ as our personal savior and exercise True faith in him, we will be eligible for his gift, which is free to those who Truly believe.
you ask why I even bring up the point that christ atoned for yours and mines sins, when the reason I am is because is because you need to understand that it takes FAITH, and this only to accept that he did do this, we cant prove it. SMH
by the way, the wordprint studies DOESNT PROVE that he got help from anybody!? get your facts
jaromsmiss 3 weeks ago
@jaromsmiss ---What you have to understand is what is a sky-hook religion, something that is grasped at by the toe and is based solely from the imagination of one man, their ideas are extreme by any length of the human mind. demanding that you believe in them. is a false spirit. The reality is, these religious men are all about is destortion of the truth, This is what a false prophet is all about, they appear bold on the scene, but contradict what God has already established in the scriptures.
Rypaul5217 3 weeks ago
@jaromsmiss -- This is now a mute point, since you and I both believe in the testimony of the Apostles who witnessed the life of Christ. Its what they wrote about Christ that bares witness of who he was, see 1 John 2:2, Romans 5:8-9 ,1 Tim 1:15. Again, its hard to imagine how Jesus could have fullfilled all those 326 prophecies, (plus 30 others that are related to the promises of God for salvation) Therefoe Jesus was indeed the Messiah and the Son of God.
There is no getting around Him.
Rypaul5217 3 weeks ago
@jaromsmiss ---1 Corinthians 2:10-16
Rypaul5217 3 weeks ago
@jaromsmiss Are you telling me that Christ died for nothing? Without Jesus there is no Christianity. There is no salvation, There is no hope for eternal life, There is no walk with God. for without God life would be meaningless and void.
Ok well Isaiah 53 6 is only one place where Christ fullfiled old Testament prophecies, btw the apostles used OT scriptures to show how that Jesus was the messiah when sharing with the Jews. which is what this is all about. Who was Jesus.
Rypaul5217 3 weeks ago
@Rypaul5217
"Are you telling me that Christ died for nothing?
How do u not understand what Im saying? its not that hard to understand.
your whole point means nothing, because of my concept. I dont understand how you are confused by what Im saying.
If i was an atheist, would what your saying convince me? No it would not in anyway. you cant prove to me that christ atoned for my sins. You cant prove to me of christ teachings or the afterlife. etc....
jaromsmiss 3 weeks ago
@jaromsmiss Sin? Sin separates us from God, So your argument is circular, to prove Christ is to prove that there is a need for Christ. Sins = separation from God = need for a savior. therefore Jesus = remission of sins = relationship with God. Christ can only benifit those who come to God by him, but the athiest does not believe in God, so the argument is something entirely different, unless we can convince them what is sin and why they need a savior. They first have to know that there is a God.
Rypaul5217 3 weeks ago
@Rypaul5217
so just because Jesus christ was a man on the earth is automatic proof? it is not proof. Many atheists think that he was a lier and a madman. again, there is absolutely no way to proof that Jesus christs teachings are true. It takes faith and faith only. My point is that what you call "evidences" are not evidences at all. When all is said and done, faith will be all that is left.
jaromsmiss 3 weeks ago
@jaromsmiss The LIE also needs you to have faith in it. Think of it, a group of people called Heaven's Gate had plenty of faith in a so called space ship following a brightly lit comet called Hale-Bopp, Well they all commited suicide to leave the Earth to go with the Alien, Such leaders like Marshall Applewhite are telling people lies, so it wasnt that they lacked faith in what they believed. You can say you have faith in what ever you want but faith itself doesnt make it true.
Rypaul5217 3 weeks ago
@Rypaul5217
its funny that you say that, because when it gets right down to it this same concept goes with your faith that Christ atoned for your sins. Can you literally prove that he has done it? could an atheist believe you through proof of this? no, because it cant be proven.
just because you can show me artifacts and writings that Jesus lived means nothing for the case that he atoned for mine and yours sins.
jaromsmiss 3 weeks ago
@Rypaul5217
do u understand where Im coming from Rypaul? im trying to get you to admit that it indeed takes an external source to really know jesus atoned for mine and your sins.
stop with the whole prophecy stuff. That is in no way evidence. Why? because the prophecies from the old testament are prophecies that cant be proven. I dont understand how you dont get this. You cant PROVE that christ atoned for my sins. There is no way around that Rypaul
jaromsmiss 3 weeks ago
@Rypaul5217
it takes pure faith. sorry but your prophecy evidence isnt really evidence at all.
jaromsmiss 3 weeks ago
@jaromsmiss Only the son of God could have fullfilled those prophecies. no one even could have come even closer to fullfilling 8 important ones. Bible prophecies are the only prophecies that have clearly come to pass with regard to who Jesus was. Again, unless you can show how Jesus was fictional or the gospels were embellished, or the whole thing is a man made fantasy story and a lie, then you may have an argument, but if Jesus was the son of God, hence it follows his own proof.
Rypaul5217 3 weeks ago
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jaromsmiss 3 weeks ago
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jaromsmiss 3 weeks ago
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@Rypaul5217
"unless you can show how Jesus was fictional or the gospels were embellished, or the whole thing is a man made fantasy story and a lie, then you may have an argument"
The burden of proof is on you. for example, if I were to tell you that my dog is elvis pressley reincarnated , you would ask me how? It would be ridicolous for me to say to you "proof that my dog ISNT elvis pressley ". Do you understand what the burden of proof means now?
jaromsmiss 3 weeks ago
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jaromsmiss 3 weeks ago
@boydslittlefactory What your saying is since a movie is false and I can still feel the spirit, can the same be for the BOM? such as If I feel good when I read it but its fictional like a movie?
I dont open the possiblity in any way. The reason why is because I prayed specifically about if its true record or not. I got a specific answer.
If I would pray to God and ask if the movie "bambi" was true I would not get confirmation that it is true.
jaromsmiss 3 weeks ago
@jaromsmiss That is exactly what I am suggesting.
I freely admit that I could be mistaken in my beliefs. You are very quick to dismiss any idea that you could be wrong - what would be required for you to admit that you could be wrong about mormonism?
boydslittlefactory 3 weeks ago
@boydslittlefactory What would be required for me to admit that I am wrong? I cant. the reason is because I know that i have recieved a spiritual witness and I cant deny it.
I could never get paul the apostle to reject his testimony of the savior, and so I have no problem saying that nothing can change my beliefs either.
jaromsmiss 3 weeks ago
@boydslittlefactory
I have prayed specifically about the BOM and have recieved a witness, a promised one.
the spirit testifies and tell us what is true. If I go out and rake someones leaves I am going to feel really good after. Why? because the spirit motivates and helps us to know and to do what is right.
jaromsmiss 3 weeks ago
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jaromsmiss 3 weeks ago
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jaromsmiss 3 weeks ago
You said that because you had a burning in the bosom feeling you "knew" the Book of Mormon was true. It is odd, but when I was an active member I had similar feelings that I considered to be spiritual feelings in church meetings, while singing hymns, listening to testimonies or talks, but also sometimes felt the same when watching fictional movies, such as Avatar, etc.
That confirmed to me that emotional feelings cannot be relied upon to distinguish either truth or things of God.
boydslittlefactory 3 weeks ago
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@boydslittlefactory
Moroni in the book of mormon understands how the spirit works and so he asks everyone who reads the record to pray specifically if its true.
The spirit testifies of spiritual truth.
jaromsmiss 3 weeks ago
The Mormon is much like a man who comes to the table and boasts and raves that he has a full house, but in actuality all hes got absolutly nothing, not even a pair of duces. its that sad.
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
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@Rypaul5217
"The Mormon is much like a man who comes to the table and boasts and raves that he has a full house, but in actuality all hes got absolutly nothing"
and this is coming from a christian? a christian who believes in the bible simply because of physical evidence and nothing else. You have already admitted that the only reason you are a christian is because of the physical evidence. What about faith? christs teachings were of this. shoot, God himself takes faith, no proof for him.
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss ---its been real.
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
John 3:16-17 the gospel of Christ in a nutshell is "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever should believe in Him should not perish, but has everlasting life...for God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world but so that the world through him might be saved. "
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
have a great night
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
I proved my point
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
im gettin some sleep RYpaul, Im out.
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss---here see YT vid. Joseph Smith translation of the Book of Mormon (by Jim Catlin)
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
Anyways, I gotta go to bed, I gotta get up really early tommorow. I feel that I proved a great concept and hopfully it will make sense to ya.
peace brother
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
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@Rypaul5217
Anyways, I gotta go to bed, I gotta get up really early tommorow. I feel that I proved a great concept and hopfully it will make sense to ya.
peace brother
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
Im out. I gotta get some sleep. I proved my point tonight.
have a great night brother
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
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@Rypaul5217
Im out. I gotta get some sleep. I proved my point tonight.
have a great night brother
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
Im gettin some sleep brother!
i proved my point.
see ya
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
Jarom---I am a scientist...lol
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
your a christian scientist that is going in circles.
Atheists would seriously have a field day with your concept, I dont care if your a scientist or not brother
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss ---no I really am a scientist. sorry but its my education and my advocation. being a Christian doesnt change that..or visa versa..I have complete harmonie with my understanding of science as well as the walking by faith in Christ.
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
Im sure you understand science and have a great faith in christ. But what you have said would seriously be laughed at by atheists.
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss so?...they simply need to know who God is thats all, God can open their minds...they need Christ too. so do the cults who say that they are the only ones who are saved, and everybody else is wrong. eh?
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
I hope that you go back over my comments and read them again. I think if you keep looking over them it will all make sense to you.
your concept of believing in the bible because it says so is very weak.
It takes an external source, the spirit. you have been going in circles ever since I asked you that first question a while back.
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss---ok so how come when I read The book of Mormon all I see is that its just plain fictional nonsense?
Fiction is something flutuitious, made up...has no evidence of itself, so Mormon I have to ask you ...what if your wrong, and it is as fictional as Alice in Wonderland? Should I put my trust in something that is merely a novel? or just simply take your word on it?
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
well my atheist friends think the bible is downright dumb and ridicolous too. this doesnt mean they are right Rypaul.
Look man, first off, the teachings of Jesus are against evidence. He taught faith, and faith only. What did he ask of people when he healed them? He didnt have to prove anything to them. They had to have faith in him to be healed.
second, you mentioned if I should take my word on it. lol MY POINT has been against this ALL along! I have been telling you to not do
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss Jesus himself is the evidence.. 326 prophecies, so its not about blind faith. God fullfilling his word is evidence..so is science. believe it or not. the universe just didnt pop out of nowhere. and life didnt start itself, so there is reason to believe in a Creator.
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
LOL its science? you must have never talked to a good knowledgeable atheist before then.
They would eat you up!
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
your not understanding my point when it comes to the prophesies. I have stated my case TWICE and you just repeat the same thing man. the prophesy stuff is no proof at all because its prophesying of stuff that WECANT PROVE!
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss huh? well if fullfilled prophecies dont mean that God said it. then I dont know my Bible. lol
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
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@Rypaul5217
"well if fullfilled prophecies dont mean that God said it. then I dont know my Bible. lol"
I am sure you do know your bible, if you study it then you probably do.
Im not trying to insult your intelligence at all. I am saying the same thing over and over though. I really hope you understand what I am saying, because what I am saying makes total sense and what you have said is so weak its lopsided brother
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
this, but to ask God, (your God if that makes you more comfortable) if the book is true. First read from it, with an open heart, and ask God. Ask an external source, just like you HAVE to do to truly know if the bible is the word of GOD>
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
"Probabilities from Peter Stoner in Science Speaks (Moody Press, 1963) to show that coincidence is ruled out by the science of probability. Stoner says that by using the modern science of probability in reference to eight prophecies, 'we find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 10^17 (that is 1 to the 17th power)."
didyouknowtruth()com/365-messianic-prophecies
What are the odds w/ 326 messianic prophecies?
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
you dont get my point. Can you prove that Jesus atoned for you? the prophecies of jesus is great. They prophesy that he would come and suffer for all mankind, and because of him we could have eternal life.
BUT, it the burdon of proof is on me and you, because we are the ones who teach and preach to people about jesus.
How can you proof that jesus really atoned for u and me, and that he was risen and sent back to heaven?
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
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jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss oh come on now...you are trying to pull the feathers off a rabbit...how is fullfilling 326 OT prophecies not meaning that Jesus came into this world to save us from God's wrath concerning our iniquities? I mean one thing is not impossible for Christ to do fullfilled hundreds of messianic prophecies? and that this is somehow not the proof that the was the Son of God?
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
why do u not get what Im saying! lol its not that hard!
look. in the OT it says that Jesus will come and suffer and die for all people, so that we can have eternal life and have forever joy and happiness. Thats cool.
now in the New testament, it says that he did this.
the atheists would laugh at us right about now. thats considered proof? we cant proof that any more than we can proof God exists come on man/
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
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@Rypaul5217
how can we prove that there is an after life? we cant proof it of course. it takes Faith, and faith only. You cant tell me that because of artifacts that this is proof. You cant say that because a prophecy says it will happen that it is true. This is my point all along brother.
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
At some point, it requires a spiritual witness that these things are true. IT takes FAITH, and FAITH only. evidence only takes you so far Rypaul, there is a point where faith must be put in the equation.
U said earlier that you wouldnt believe in the bible if it didnt have any evidence. is this still your stance on the matter?
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
again, just because the bible prophecies that jesus will atone for the world, and it says that he did atone for the world after the prophesy, doesnt mean that its true.
I takes something else to determine this. an external source. the spirit of the almighty.
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss---that is to say that without these many fullfilled prophecies about the messiah, the Bible would be only a history book.
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
Just as my faith in the bible is based off of a personal spiritual witness. Just as I know that christ atoned for me because Of the spirit of God, the same is for the BOM brother.
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss---
so yes you are right, any man can write "a book".
you really should listen to yourself.
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
Having said that, the Bible supports our faith, not becomes our faith...our faith in God is based upon our belief that God is eternal, any printed material is not God, Faith is the foundation of our walk with God. because we can place this faith in other gods, or in things in the world, or even in ourselves, or in other men's works but true faith is a walk with the living God. himself, this is what the Bible teaches.
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
I would have to say that we are very fortunate to have such a bible, that we have a bible. yes its very important, because of its teaching, about the history and church of God. but no ...there are plenty of Christians in China who dont have a bible but are true believers. so really the Christian Faith is not dependant on the Bible, but the other way around the Bible remains in the world because Christian did have such faith in God.
hope this answers your question.
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss--- We dont pray to God for instance to find out if we should kill someone, or it we should steal. and to find out about what is a false prophet well Deut 18:22 gives us a test for a false prophet...but however I will say this, we should pray to God for direction, in this life. for the answer from God is to help us understand his will. not whether a book is true or not. that would be tempting the Lord to give you a sign.
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
ok sense you have said you only depend on evidence for the bible, then how can you question that it takes a spiritual witness to determine if the bible is true? did you know that the Quran says its the word of God also?
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss
The fact that the bible says its the word of God is simply not enough. There must be some sort of spiritual witness to the person for him or her to know if the book is true.
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss
Any body could write a book and say that they have the authoritative words that it is true. doesnt mean anything. just because the bible or Quran says its the word of God doesnt mean that its automatically true. Ultimatly its up to that individual to recieve some sort of spiritual witness to determine if its true.
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss like I mentioned before...Jesus fullfilled 326 messianic prophesies concerning his ministry...this one man Jesus of Nazereth, was the only man on this earth who could have done this, this is what makes the Bible so complete.
Jesus.
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
its funny you keep bringing up the prophecies, because do you have proof that jesus atoned for you? do you have proof that jesus was risen, and then went to heaven? Many atheists, such as hitchens and dawkins felt that the whole "prophecy" evidence is too vague and can be answered in other ways.
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
"so yes you are right, any man can write "a book"."
you just proved my point brother. I feel that your going in circles when it comes to my question of how to figure out if a book is true. IT indeed does take an external source, it takes the spirit of God to know.
The BOM give a specific promise brother . Pray and ask God if it is true. If the BOM said that it was true just because it said so, nobody would believe it because it has a lack of evidence.
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss
millions of people around the world dont believe in the BOM just because it says so, or any other reason other than the fact that they have recieved a personal spiritual witness that cant be discribed as anything else other than Incredible and outerbody.
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss...ok ...lets put it this way...if there were no manuscripts of the bible and no cities, and no history, and none of its people found anywhere...then I would have to dismiss it...okay...hows that?
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
so you believe in the bible because of evidence then, correct?
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss ok well no Im complaining, you are on a train (perhaps there is something I should know?) ok Im game, just keep going ...
ok...lets ride it
I believe the Bible is the word of God = fullfillled prophecies
I believe the Bible is a history of the Jews = real antiquity .
I believe the Bible is realiable = 24000 manuscripts which are compariable, one to the other.
ok...so your point is?
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
Where does the faith come in for you? is it because of the evidence of the bible, or is because you have prayed about the bible and recieved a spiritual witness about it?
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss
So basically, if the bible had no evidence then you wouldnt be a christian correct?
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss Faith belongs to walking with God. but where works of antiquity matter...using our brains is what is afoot not religious illusion. or feelings, reading books we are to use our noggen, because there are many liars out there. and all lies find themselves out, very simply, there will be nothing there in their words to support it.
The Bible says "and the Lord hateth every false way" proverbs
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss --- really in my mind, there is no question about where the bible came from...thats the point. we see the evidence, but with Smith's storybook there is nothing, not one city, not one steel sword. not one location found, not any villages...not one person place or event has ever been found associated with the story of the book of mormon.
see youtube vid. "DNA vs the Book of Mormon" this documentary is about where the Native Americans came from, a good study about this issue
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss ---24000 physical Bible manuscripts is not evidence?
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss ---appears to me that the evidence that the Bible is the word of God is the number of prophecies that are fullfilled by Christ.
so what is the problem?
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@Jaromsmiss--Did you know that there is this guy name Ammon in the Book of Mormon story that cuts off the arms of the Lamanites? And how is it that the spirit entices Nephi to decapitate the head of one of his own countrymen, Laban to get the plates? Where did steel swords come from? How is it that Shiz was still breathing with his head cut off? And there are these many battles with horses and chariots, men fighting with sentars, swords everywhere!
Where?
"fiction lends itself to fiction"
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
Rypaul, answer my question that I have asked already, that you didnt answer before.
Is your belief in the bible based off faith, or is it based off of the evidence of the bible?
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss ---Christians believe that there is only one God---that is-- only one Lord God.[not two.] and that this God is an eternal Spirit. (not 3 spirits).
God always was God. and is the only God.
Jesus because he fullfilled 326 messianic prophecies. only Jesus could have done this.
The Bible came by way of antiquity. the people of the Bible were Jews
Many Bible cities. artifacts, thousands of clay tablets, other ruins, etc are found and there are 24000 manuscripts of the Bible!
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
what if there was no evidence of the bible? would you still believe it, or would you think its completely false and jesus was a liar
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss ok..so if the Bible is false, how do you explain how Jesus fullfilled 326 prophecies about the Messiah?
Psalm 22 for instance David says in prayer "it contains the words of Christ on the cross jesus and david are saying the same thing "My God My God why has thou forsaken me!" and "They piece my hands and my feet" and "my tongue cleaves in my mouth, and they cast lots for my garment" this is obviously talking about Jesus' crucifixion. David was never crucified.
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
your not understanding my question..would you still believe in the bible if it had NO evidence?
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss cities found is no evidence??? arifacts found is not evidence? that we know who the Jews are is not evidence? that other nations have written about these people is not evidence? arp?
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss
WOW. HYPOTHETICLY speaking. Would you still believe in the Bible if evidence for it didnt exist?
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss ---hypothetically? What for?...hey man, just prove the bible is not of God...get to the chase. Will you? I think you are barking up the wrong tree here, the bible is a history, we both know this. so really I dont see your point.
but however, to allow this conversation to end somewhere...if you can show me that the bible is false..hey, I am all ears and eyes...always have been. please by all means share it.
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
Wow, I sit here and answer question after question of yours, and then I ask you one question and you complain about it.
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
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@jaromsmiss---I am not here to prove the existance or none existance of God, this is not the topic here...but rather the validity of Joseph Smith claims what he said about his storybook...big difference. but upon reading the actual testimonies, I can see that there never was any golden book, Smith simply had them see visions of it. and get them to sign a prewritten page...real slick.
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
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Rypaul5217 1 month ago
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jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss cont..--" I advised him by all means to open the trunk and examine its contents, ... His reply was, that. if he opened the trunk, the "curse of heaven would descend upon him and his children.' "However," added he, "I will agree to open it, provided you take the 'curse of Heaven' upon yourself, for having advised me to the step." I told him I was perfectly willing to do so." {Letter of Prof. Charlse Anthon)
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
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@jaromsmiss---here is something I find very interesting in Professor Anthon's 2nd letter to Rev Colt ---Professor Anthon to Harris
"I then asked him how he could be so foolish as to sell his farm and engage in this affair; and requested him to tell me if the plates were really of gold. In answer to this latter inquiry, he (Harris) said, that he had never seen the plates themselves, which were carefully locked up in a trunk, but that he had the trunk in his possession..." cont...
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
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Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss ---I believe that the primary inspiration for Smith' book was his father's dream, which is also in the book of Mormon.
if you read Joseph Smith sen dream, there is no doubt where the source for 1 Nephi ch 11-12 came from.
Basically, its the same vision or dream of his own father.
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
I feel like Im being interrogated! I have answered many of your questions, and they are not good enough for you. It doesnt really matter what I could say, you would In know way believe. When it gets right down to it, we can pick at every detail of the BOM. There still is no proof that it is false. You have so many questions! If I answer one you have 3 more and so on.
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
There are pages upon pages of anti-mormon writings. JS has been called crazy, and a false prophet. He we always be debated. people say he wrote the BOM, that he had a big imagination and so on.
When all is said and done, I cant sit here and proof to you the BOM is true. I can answer little individual questions about this or that, but you will never believe unless you have an open heart, study the book, and pray to your father in heaven if it is really true
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
I cant prove that God exists either. religon takes Faith. Did jesus atone for my sins? this takes faith. you cant prove that this happened. Look Rypaul5217, all that Im saying is to go to God for the answers your seeking.
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss --- depends on which God you mean. in Mormonism there are many gods, in fact Elohim is only one of many gods, and all these gods are men with many wives...so which god are you talking about?
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
ok, then dont pray. Dont worry about our church. I just did my best to answer some of your question. have a great day.
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss ---?
Listen -- simply look up Peter Ingersoil affadavit 1833 read what he said, word for word, and see whether or not there is something odd going on with Joseph Smith and his golden book thing...This was a man who was with Joe Smith and quoted him as saying thus...his sworn testimony is signed before a judge, by oath...Peter said that Joseph Smith told him that "he never had such a book."
You should read all of it. there is more to what Smith said here..
its amazing!
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
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@jaromsmiss Joseph Smith's "and it came to pass" narrative is unusually redundant, for example see 4 Nephi 1:6 ..here Joseph wrote about how many years have past...well why should someone be ingraving metal about such years if nothing happened in such and such years?
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
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Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss --- Try counting the number of times Joseph Smith uses "and it came to pass that" in 1 Nephi ch 16: v 1 - 35 I bet you will throw up once you see it. I mean common, who but an 7th grader writes like this?
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss --- David Whitmer describes the manner in which each sentence came ...Smith he said would see one symbol ---which showed him the line for which it meant...so how in the world could the line Smith saw have a mistake of grammer in it?
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217 are you serious?
if somebody told me to write down what they told me, Does that mean that I will always spell correctly? These were normal people that scribed for JS. Anybody can make mistakes as a scribe.
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss who said anything about spelling? its the ENGLISH grammer that was off.
if Smith said he SAW the sentence with his face in his hat, hence how does it have such poor English grammer?
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
never mind I understand what your saying about off and on. dont give me a source i read it wrong.
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss Here...There are a number of web sites that show the chronology of Smith's life when and where the translation of the book of mormon took place and with whom ...all the sources you need is there...google = history of Joseph Smith timeline-chronology. charts with references are available.
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
let me guess....your researching wordprints on an anti-mormon website right now lol
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss --- So are you saying its wrong to study the history the affadavits and the journals and read 19 century newspapers and other opinions, to know what actually happened back then? I can studying anything...I ve done it most of my life. its nothing really. To be honest with you, I dont like psuedo information. but I do like to get my finger nails in the dirt, and see what is being hidden behind the curtain. and its very rewarding, let me tell you.
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss--Moreover, the original manuscript (found buried in Navoo --rain parched) had 4 scribes, with 4 different handwritings, and upon different sized papers. (One of the scribe handwriting is unknown) Emma, being the 1st scribe for him in Dec. 1827, but after 116 pages were lost in March of 1828. Harris and Smith went back to work, and Cowdrey later copied Harris's pages. Its the 4 separate handwritings that points to more than just one scribe over a period of time.
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
of course there were different scribes. I agree. your point? just because its different people doesnt mean that there are not going to be grammer mistakes
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss so it didnt take 65 days. more like two years off and on. with 4 scribes...get my point?
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
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jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss No man knows my history, by fawn brodie...lol
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
It was about 65 days total. your right it was an off and on process due to constant problems from others, but 65 total
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@jaromsmiss --- for 4 months, Martin Harris was his scribe before Cowdrey was...so where does he fit into your scheme of things?
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
do u know much about wordprints? wordprints are the writing styles of every individial. It is as different as DNA.
There are over 15 different authors in the book Of Mormon. They have been all proven to have a different writing style. If Joseph smith were to have wrote the book himself, he would have had to switch up his style 15 different times. thats impossible.
jaromsmiss 1 month ago
@Jaromsmiss---by your argument, the same logic can be used, no golden book, it follows then---
1) The book of mormon is fiction,
2) Then Joseph Smith was a false prophet
3) Then the Mormon Church is false and missleading
help me out here...here is Satan who transformed into an angel of light, like unto an angel from heaven...out pops a gold book out of nowhere about a mysterious people that no body can find and its true without question.
um yup - ahuh
Rypaul5217 1 month ago
@Rypaul5217
Yes I agree totally. If the BOM is false, the JS is false, and the church is totally false. I dont think that you understand my point. This mysterieous book that you are referring to asks you to pray specifically about it, and ask if its true from God himself.
This book is no piece of cake either...it is an entire of a people, complete with valcanoe eruptions, wars, and doctrines that are taught. it came forth in 65 days, over 520 pages a history.
jaromsmiss 1 month ago