Calvinism: The Westminster Shorter Catechism Q. & A. 8

[NarrowPathPilgrim]

Great Video! Keep up the good work! Soli Deo Gloria!

[jwuonog]

I need help on this. I'm not sure which one I am.

I'm not Bible expert, but Ephesians 1:4 kinda leads me towards Supra.

Can someone clear it up?

[RedBeetle]

You need to study logic.

Then come back to this problem.

This subject is dealing with the logical order of decrees.

[jwuonog]

well, I was thinking about the words "before the foundation of the world", how it would support supralapsarianism.

I know what the subject is.

[HamtramckGrace]

Very good, you got it. If God decreed election before the foundation of the world, then the Supra position is the only biblical one!

[heart4moocows]

Supralapsarianism doesn't make any sense at all from a logical standpoint. The Fall of Man obviously presupposes the existence/creation of Man. And the word, "ekklesia," means "called out." Unless the the world is presupposed to be fallen, what is the Church called out from?

Also, although it's a debated issue, most scholars people Calvin was an infralapsarian. His disciple, Beza, however, was a supralapsarian. Gomarus was also a supralapsarian and an all-around wicked man. x.o

[RedBeetle]

The discussion is not over the chronological order of events, but the logical order in which God decreed them to happen--not chonological, but logical--big difference.

heart4moocows wrote:

"most scholars [believe] Calvin was an infralapsarian"

This is the informal logical fallacy of AD POPULUM. Just because a number of people think 2+2=7 doesn't make it so. We don't count noses to establish the truth. If you would have studied logic, you could have avoided both of these basic mistakes.

[1b2cd4]

Hi I'm not a calvinist but i was wondering are you saying that god wanted the fall to happen and then got mad because it did?

[RedBeetle]

Yes, God did want the fall to happen.

The fall did not surprise God.

God does not have emotions.

God did not get emotionally upset when Adam sinned.

God simply punished Adam for his sin.

[rhedrich3]

"God does not have emotions."

Sure He does. What reason have you to believe this as Scripture says God can be angry with, hate, love (et. al.) me?

[RedBeetle]

O.k.,

Define the term emotion.

We'll begin from there.

No definition, no right to make your claim.

I will be waiting.

[rhedrich3]

"The part of the consciousness that involves feeling."

[RedBeetle]

That is not a definition of the term "emotion."

You have merely substituted "feeling" for emotion. Yes, emotions are these things that are said to be in our consciousness, but what are they?

[YoungCalvinist08]

Bro. Monty, I see where you are coming from, but I still have one nagging question. How does this position affect evangelism and the free offer of the Gospel?

[RedBeetle]

Supralapsarianism encourages evangelism, for God's Word always accomplishes its goal, regardless if anyone believes or not.

The Free Offer of the Gospel, as taught by John Murray/Louis Berkhof/Cornelius Van Til/ and Greg Bahnsen, is the second part of the First Point of Common Grace, and it is simply a subtle form of Arminianism.

Our Almighty God does NOT desire to save the reprobate, for then they would be saved. See Job 23:13. If you're new to Common Grace, then go to my channel page.

[aquin520]

Excuse me, but what do you think of the term hyper calvinism as it is labeled to those who believe in Supralapsarianism? I hold to supralapsarianism meaning that God is all sovereign no questions asked!

[RedBeetle]

Hyper-Calvinism is not Supralapsarianism.

Hyper-Calvinism is the mistaken view that God does not command reprobates to repent and believe the Gospel--this, of course, is the logical fallacy of assuming that "ought" implies "can."

Pelagians, Roman Catholics, as well as the proponents of "The Free Offer Of The Gospel" make this same mistake in reasoning.

[skalapunk]

I don't even see how Infra is even considered at all.

The words "before the world began" in the Bible (and other such phrases) definately lead to a Supra view.

[Glorthac]

Its just the uneducated Calvinists who are Infralapsarians.

[jgrig2]

Yes, because BB Warfield, Edwards, Owen, the majority of the Puritans, and the majority of all Calvinists are uneducated. Grow up.

[jgrig2]

It is simple. Our predestination occured the actual work of God in the creation of the world and this is not a reference to the decrees of God.

[FirebrandNIRE]

Supralapsarianism here