I don't understand spanish talk but I like the way it sounds and especially with Flamenco or some mariachi. Would you like to dance? While on assignment in mexico City region Engineer tastes your countries foods and butiful colorful culture. MMMMMMMM
Anyway, my final word on the the Me262 subject, I am not disputing that it was an incredible aircraft. probably the best all round aircraft in service in numbers in WW2. All I am saying is that it was not perfect. Prop aircraft still had some advantages over it and could often shoot it down. I am just saying that we should be careful not to imagine it was 'invincible'. And also the Allies had their own jets too, but the Me262 was the best all round of these first generation jets.
Rate of Climb for the Jumo004C (...which was not the most advanced of the Jumos) at sea-level (speed 540 km/h) was 25 m/s. The HeS11 had 33 m /s ! Especially at the end of the war some jumo-jet-engines with much more performance were ready. The 109-004H had 17,7 kN instead of 10k kN (004-C) and a much more advanced model based on the same basic systems the Jumo 0121 with 27,3 KN !!
A very good english source seemes to be --> Google:"Junkers Jumo 004".
@cyberOwwwOecho I'm sure you have heard about the immense problems, which were caused by the fact that in Germany important special alloy were not longer available in the last war-years. This was the main reason for quality-problems you described. Also piston driven fighter planes were effected to lack of high-quality-material. The Merlin-Motors had a much better endurance.
I recommend to read the englisch source I gave you below: Wikipedia "Junkers Jumo 004".
The Me-262 changed a lot. In the specific Bomber-Altitude (arround 6-8000 Meters) they had much more power, even at maximum weight still much better climbing rates as the P-51 in normal configuration and the MK-108 was integrated in the nose - so it was very exactly and didn't cause any aerodynamic disadvantages. Due to the high speed of the Me-262 the Pilots had to slow down their machines when shooting.
But Germany suffered at the end of the war from experienced Pilots and Fuel.
Ok then google 'Me262 Good acceleration' and see how many hits you get, zero.
I dont care who you talked too, the early jets had poor acceleration and teh Me262 had pooora acceleration FOR AN EARLY JET. Even the Gloster Meteor had better acceleration, but both were slower in acceleeration than the prop fighters of the day. We may as well stop this, cos you are such a fanboy you will not listen to reason.
British RAE documents of evaluations of a captured Me262 in October 1945 showed that both thrust and rate-of-climb are reduced by nearly 50% at altitudes approaching 20 to 25 thousand feet for the Jumo 004 powered Me262. So altitude did not provide greater performance. A quick check of P-51D figures by comparison shows a greater climb rate at altitude than the Me262.
For sure not. It's physics. The flowability and low temperatures of thin air in high altitudes benefits performance of jet engines. In this condition piston driven engines occure a severe loss of performance.
They need turbo-chargers to compensate the severe loss of performance in higher altitudes.
Piston driven engines are good for short runways and steep angles of climb after take-off. But at higher speed and higher altitudes jet engines have much more performance.
...and you also shouldn't confound rate of climb with angle of climb. For sure the rate of climb of the Me-262 was much higher - because it's performance was much higher - to verify this just look at the huge difference of speed !
A pretty general statement, isn't it? It seemes that "altitude" doesn't exist for you.
Your Wikipedia in England confirmes:
"Conversely, the higher power of jet engines at higher speeds meant the Me 262 enjoyed a much higher rate of climb (...--> than propellers) . Used tactically, this gave the jet fighter an even greater speed advantage in climb rate than level flight at top speed."
@cyberOwwwOecho and from wikipedia (not a source, but in this case correct) - Me262 climb rate = 4000ft/m, Spitfire IX merlin 66 climb rate 5000 ft/min.
Jet engines have total different climb characteristics then piston driven engines. Beside of this it depends on weight, pressure-altitude, temperature and more. Piston driven engines use to have their maximus at sea level.
So just reading from a paper the Me-109K-4 was much supperior to the Mustang in terms of climb rate, the BF-109E-3 & FW 190D-9 almost the same, the BF 109A-8 much worse. The latest Spitires and Tempest, but also Yak 3 and 9U superior.
I checked the Mustang F-51D Manual from 1954 and watched Military Power Climb Chart (Standard Day), Gross Weight 10.200 Pounds or less.The Maxmum is described was 2.400ft/min at 3.000 RPM, at a pressiure-altitude of 10.000 ft --> 1850ft/min at 3.000 RPM, at 15.000 ft it's 2000 ft/min. full throttle ---> most air-combats were below 18.000 ft, (30.000 ft --> 1250/ft/min.).
Wikipedia describes R/C 3,200 ft/min, for P51-H Maximum 3.300 ft (16.8 m/s). (compared to Me-109K-4: >24m/s)
@cyberOwwwOecho Yeah the P51 has a relatively mediocre climb, it was heavier, but the SPitfire IX Merlin 66 is one of the best climbers of WW2 along with the Bf109. Both had incredible climb rates in WW2
But the German figther aircrafts suffered a big disadvantage: They always had to fight against the Allies Fighters Aircrafts AND the Allies Bombers. So they had heavier guns to carry, especially the 30mm-MK-108 canon with a huge weight for the Bombers. So you shouldn't forget it when comparing the planes. Combat-configuration and weight is totally different. The Allies had only there M2 Browning machine guns.
That you don't understand anything wrong: The P-51 and even the Tempest were great planes. I would like the fly with both. Especielly the P-51 had big influence to the outcome of war. Germanys latetst airplanes came too late and if you know how they had to construct them in hidden tunnels deep in the mountains without any convenience, you would admit it even more. ;-)
@FiveCentsPlease You are trying to convince the wrong person, its cyber0wwww)echo who believes the Me262 is leagues above everything else, I am on your side on trying to convince him reality. Spitfire IX climb rate 5000ft per minute, Me262 4000ft/min.
Expample from around 10,000 sources :- "Early jet engines had less thrust at low speed than piston or turboprop engines. Acceleration is relatively poor and for the Me 262 it was worse because all early jet engines responded only slowly to throttle changes."
Whatever you search in Google - you will find it. Even that the world will end tomorrow. So thats a really poor argument.
Beside of this many pilots did explain their experiences and as I think, that I understand German well it would make more sense to check your tranlated sources. Beside of this I talked to a Me-262 eye to eye.
Again: Piston driven engines have poor performance in higher altitudes, the thinner the air is the more effecitve is a jet engine. Sorry, it's physics.
The Allies didnt need this extra performance, they used 'safe' methods and as such their jets were a little slower, but their engines didnt catch fire either. The Germans HAD to 'try' pushing the envelope because they were losing.
The Meteor and the Me262 entered service the same month in 1944.
Stop your me262 fanboyism and see that all sides had jets.
"That one in the gentle left-hand curve! Swing her round. I was coming from underneath, eye glued to the sight (pull her tighter!). A throbbing in the wings as my cannon pounded briefly. Missed him. Way behind his tail. It was exasperating. I would never be able to shoot one down like this. They were like a sack of fleas. A prick of doubt: is this really such a good fighter? Could one in fact successfully attack a group of erratically banking fighters with the Me 262"
Your citation are all from his first flight. You should read the source to the end to register that the pilots learned very fast to use the high-speed of the Me-262.
"The acceleration was poor" - rubbish. It was extremly powerfull, just in low altitude during start it took some time - like all the jets. Thats the reason why military uses piston driven engines for short runways and high angles of climb. You should go to a flight-school to understand this.
"you had to slowly push the throttle or the engines caught fire or flamed out."
LOL, this doesn't mean that acceleration was slow! The Me-262-Pilot praise the acceleration in each interview, one said: "It was like an angel pushing the plain ahead. What a difference to piston-drive-planes.
Some technical information: The thinner the air, the more this effekt works bei jet-engine-driven airplanes. Beside of this the Me-262 could fly turns without any loss of velocitiy.
@cyberOwwwOecho No that doesnt mean the acceleration was poor, but it ADDED to the already poor acceleration.
The pushing by Angels comment from Galland was about the jet engine in general being behind the pilot and not being 'pulled' by a noisy propelllor in front, not about the acceleration.
The acceleration of the Me262 and early jets WAS poor compared to prop fighters, just google 'me262 poor acceleration' and read up on it, simple.
Much is written on how jet engines offer better efficiency at higher altitudes due to less internal drag and higher RPMs for a given fuel ratio, colder inlet temps, and overall less airframe drag, but this does not imply that they offer better performance at higher altitudes.
The reason why piston driven plains only had a chance during landing was that it took long time to slow down the aerodynamic much more efficient jets (no prop). They had to flight several round and very view "speed-breaks". It costed some jets - but Germany hat around 1450 Me-262 in reserve - never used. Reason: Lack of fuel and pilots at the end of the war.
Forget your euphorism for the old english technic. The Me-262 definitively stopped the era of piston driven fighters.
@cyberOwwwOecho Wrong 'jets' in general stopped the era of Piston fighters the Me262 as did the Gloster Meteor, Vampire and P80. The Germans didnt have a monopoly on jets you know.
You are just an Me262 fanboy and cant see that the Meteor entered service exactly teh same month as the Me262, The Germans were just more desperate so they put a jet into service which had eninges which flamed out and caught fire as they pushed the performance beyond the limits of the engines.
Johannes Steinhoff :- "I passed one that looked as if it was hanging motionless in the air (I am too fast!). The one above me went into a steep right-hand turn, his pale blue underside standing out against the purple sky. Another banked right in front of the Me's nose. Violent jolt as I flew through his airscrew eddies. Maybe a wing's length away."
My 1st consistent kills in Aces Over Europe were in Dora9's against P51's Doras in simulater were a nightmare to be up against, but a dream come true to fly in combat, I later learned the Dora9 actually had one of the poorest turn radii, & it's roll rate wasn't quite up to the more standardised version of the Fw190's. What they did seem to have is great energy retention. In AH, I nailed several opponents by getting them to chase me,immelmenning, & hooking them from above head on.
The Focke Wulf D9-13 are so good looking planes.But to all Tempest,Mustang and SpitfireFans,dont forget the Ta 152 she was even a bit better.And dont forget the next step in aviation History ,the Me 262.
We all can be glad That Hitler dont understood the prospects such a weapon gave him.
The ME-262 was practically garbage. It was very unstable and was about as maneuverable as a city bus. It deserves credit as being the first in the next generation of aircraft, but it was not exactly the mercedes of the air.
After war it was allied "propaganda" which maligned the 262. Keep in mind how many allied bombers were shot down by Gallands Me262 squadron "Jagdverband 44" the last weeks of war. Read "Die Ersten und die Letzten" by Adolf Galland. He said, one Me 262 was worth 5 Me 109. It was only the fact of being outnumbered that detained higher success.
@maddingo12 a few precisions here,it's engines had a lifespan of about 40hours,mainly because the germans couldn't find enough chrome and other rare materials to fully furbish their planes.
apart from that, the schwalbe was a jolly good plane,in the experienced hands of the jv44's "alte hasen";they proved it.
but by 1944;the luftwaffe almost only had rookies to send to the air;
Your comment is also garbage. May be, because you are incapable to understand all the Me-262-pilots-interviews raving about the huge and superior capabilities of those planes. With the Me-262 it was possible to attack huge bomber formations with great success. And with the Me-262 ended the period of piston driven fighter airplanes.
Oh great. A Germanophile who cannot tolerate someone dispelling his favorite myths of WW2 about German superiority in everything. What about dog fighting?You couldn't make sharp turns without ripping the wings. You had to make long and gradual turns; a turning ME-262 was so slow that Allied fighters would shoot most of them down in this fashion. The jet would also fly so fast that you couldn't line anyone up for a shot. An Allied fighter just had to turn right or left to avoid getting hit.
I never said that the ME-262 was not revolutionary. I said that it was a poor plane for anything else besides ambushing large formations of bombers. It was useless for dog fighting. The 262 pilots were told to avoid dogfights. The superior speed was actually a handicap. Many German pilotes have commented that the plane was so fast that they would constantly fly-by Allied fighters. They would constantly over shoot or under shoot their targets because of the speed differences.
Why dogfighting slower airplanes convoying the bomber formations when not necessary? At those time "speed" was life-insurance. The "tactical initiative" was the huge advantage of the Me-262. And you forgot something absolutely important: The superior, highly efficent MK-108 Rheinmetall-30-mm-board-gun of the Me-262. Quite a few hits and the target was destroyed. German Me-262-pilots always used to say that one of this birds was substituting minimum five FW-190.
Eric Brown, a british war-pilot, testing the Me-262 after war, concluded: "In my eyes far and away the most progressiv militar-airplane at this time. A big success, which outclassed everything which was available on the allied side. Our luck was, that it wasn't available in sufficient number. to intervene. It was a airplane created for real pilots soul." And I will complete: It was available, 1433 planes were build. But pilots weren't not available anymore.
@cyberOwwwOecho Many were built, but lost right away to bombing or on their first sortie.
VS 10,000 Spitfires, P51's, Tempests and P47's, they really didnt have a chance Probably only 1/4 of those 1433 actually survived a single sortie, if any at all. (destroyed in transit to the airfield or sitting ready to be supplied)
Listen to this interview from Walter Krupinski, one of the many fighter-heros of WWII, which one more then 100, 200 or 300 airfights against your Spitfires, Tempest, P51 etc.... Then you start lauging about your comment. I will help you with only one sentence: "When we had the Me-262 it was like the other fighter-planes were standing like ballons in the air" or "we had to overcome bulgs of 1500 bombers and 500 fighters with 4 or fight jets but we got them".
@cyberOwwwOecho SO what about the return fire from bombers? Even a jet cannot outrun a bullet. The Me262 was a fantastic plane, no doubt, but not invulnerable, many were shot down. Plus they were never going to stop the RAF night bombing, not even with the ME262, and that the RAF were droppping more bombs by tonnage than the USAAF.
I think you are over-estimating the Me262. Me262 pilots ackknowledged piston engined fighters, such as the Tempest, as very dangerous to the Me262.
Tempest could be fought by other German piston engine drive planes. No problem by the very routined German fighter pilots who were not send back after 10 or 15 missions like the Allies. Many of the German pilots had more than 150 air victories, some more then 300 against the Allies.
The Me-262 was build for higher tasks - fighting fighter jets and bombers together. They had the tactical offensive and alle the former pilots are telling: We felt save in the Me-262.
I think the best engine driven airplane of the Allies by far was the P-51. Not as good like the German Ta-152 C or H (but they had not many) but much better then British stuff. Nevertheless: A good FW-190 could fight them all.
The Me-262 was only vulnerable during start&landing procedure. Once in the air it was unreachable for the Allies. Dangerous was the attack of US-Bomber (better defended then the british one and bigger) but 2-3 hits with the MK 30 were sufficient.
I recommend you to study some German to understand the interviews of the former Me-262-Pilots to feel how relaxed they feeled in the Me-262.
The night bombing of British Bombers in Berlin could be refuse pretty effectively. In Berlin the British could not effect the same like in the defenseless Dresden (which was war-strategical insignificant) due to the night-fighting strategy "Wilde Sau". The creator is still alive and lives only 10 km from here. Interesting dialogue partner.
@cyberOwwwOecho you are dreaming with 'what ifs'. Goebbels Diaries - The Führer than asks me over for a short visit. During the interview I have with him he is very impressed by my account of things. I give him a description of the devastation which is being wrought and tell him particularly of the increasing fury of the Mosquito raids which take place every evening. I cannot prevent myself voicing sharp criticism of Goring and the Luftwaffe.
@cyberOwwwOecho The P51 was half British and commisioned by the British, without them it would never have existed.
You are overestimating the Me262. The acceleration was poor, it was vulnerable on landing and take off, plus it could never have stopped the RAF night bombing campaign.
All the old German Me-262-Pilots tell the same: If they had given us the Me-262 in 1943 or early 1944 the bombing would've been stopped. No doubt.
When they are telling their stories and war-experiences in the Me-262 they are doing it continously smiling because the other planes seemed like toys in the sky.
The main problem in late 1944/early 1945 was: Lack of fuel, Lack of pilots - but enought planes (>1.500).
@cyberOwwwOecho Plus if there was any chance of the Me262 winning air superiority, the RAF would have rushed in the up engined model of the Meteor and the Vampire (rather than holding them back and sending engines to the US for testing) As it was they took a lesuirely appraoch to jet development, and never really put the jet on anything but a slow development cycle. The war was being won by piston engined fighters, there was no need to risk giving the Germans any ideas of their own
I think the best engine driven airplane of the Allies by far was the P-51. Not as good like the German Ta-152 C or H (but they had not many) but much better then British stuff. Nevertheless: A good FW-190 could fight them all.
The Me-262 was only vulnerable during start&landing procedure. Once in the air it was unreachable for the Allies. Dangerous was the attack of US-Bomber (better defended then the british one and bigger) but 2-3 hits with the MK 30 were sufficient.
I recommend you to study some German to understand the interviews of the former Me-262-Pilots to feel how relaxed they feeled in the Me-262.
The night bombing of British Bombers in Berlin could be refuse pretty effectively. In Berlin the British could not effect the same like in the defenseless Dresden (which was war-strategical insignificant) due to the night-fighting strategy "Wilde Sau". The creator is still alive and lives only 10 km from here. Interesting dialogue partner.
Again, for the 4394380th time, I never said the plane was not revolutionary. Of course it was! But it was a poor plane for dog fighting and useless for anything else but rushing large groups of bombers from above. I'm just tired of people spouting all this romanticism of Nazi Germany like everything they did and had was the best.
Regarding the Mustang we have to keep in mind it was a mission driven aircraft that required a range or all else was moot. The merlin had its limitations. thats why the tempest I and II and sea fury utilized next generaltion power plants. Back to Dora... visit the USAF museum in Dayton Ohio and youll see a great example as well as many others.
I don't think the spit was even close to being the best british fighter. The Tempest I and II were by far the BESTpiston fighters of the war EITHER SIDE. We love raving about the german technology of the war, it was certainly the most advanced overall, but when it comes to recip aircraft technology the Britts were kings. I can't even begin to list the strengths of Tempest in my remaining character count. But first i'd list the wing design. My personal fav is the Dora In emergency power mode!
I think I've got this right: this is a FW-190D-13, "Yellow 10," first restored by Doug Champlin in Mesa, AZ, then purchased and moved to the Seattle Air Museum. This is an EXTREMELY rare airlplane, which Mr Champlin found decades ago rotting behind some yahoo's car lot near Atlanta. Prof Tank himself helped with the restoration. Supposedly completely restored and flyable. I have two PICA model FW-190D-9s with Saito 125s, and this airplane is my obsession. Don't know why, I just love the look
Mostly right. Mr. Champlin had the aircraft restored in Germany after purchasing it in the 1970s. (It's a miracle the airplane survived the years of storage and neglect.) The aircraft was restored for a second time a few years ago to correct many things (such as getting the correct wings back from the NASM D9 after they were switched in error decades ago) before being sold and moved to the Seattle Air Museum. The new paint represents the colors it had when it was captured in 1945.
@FiveCentsPlease Hey thanks for that update! I have the original Yellow 10 book from the Champlin museum, and had the pleasure of having Mr Champlin give me a personal tour of his fantastic museum in Mesa way back in '01, but Yellow 10 was being restored and not viewable. Since he sold his aircraft to Seattle Air Museum I hadn't any knowledge of updates to the airframe. Thank you for the info!
It will never fly because it is a rare example, but I think it would be great if the Seattle Air Museum would roll it out for engine runs. The second restoration corrected many things and the engine was checked again. When it rolled out of the restoration shop they hoped to do engine runs, but there was a tight schedule to ship it to Seattle and it never ran again.
Technically, it changed hands once or twice before Champlain bought it. It spent time in California, where the buyer stripped off the paint and covered it in Zinc primer, thus erasing the original markings and history until it was restored again a few years ago. The original paddle-blade prop is missing but has been located with a private collector who will hopefully part with it one day.
Perhaps the best performing piston fighter/interceptor of WWII. Fast, powerful and climbs like a home-sick angel. I can't think of a better example an in-line retro from a rotary engine aircraft.
The Dora has an inline V12 engine, with a circular radiator at the front making it appear like a radial. The Jumo engine was mostly used in bombers, but performed well in the fighter.
It was the best Axis piston driven plane in WW2. P51/Spitfire where the best planes for the Allies. Mustangs had abit better stats then the Focke wulf, It's hard to seperate who is better when there all such amazing planes.
I don't understand spanish talk but I like the way it sounds and especially with Flamenco or some mariachi. Would you like to dance? While on assignment in mexico City region Engineer tastes your countries foods and butiful colorful culture. MMMMMMMM
symonsolar 1 month ago
Anyway, my final word on the the Me262 subject, I am not disputing that it was an incredible aircraft. probably the best all round aircraft in service in numbers in WW2. All I am saying is that it was not perfect. Prop aircraft still had some advantages over it and could often shoot it down. I am just saying that we should be careful not to imagine it was 'invincible'. And also the Allies had their own jets too, but the Me262 was the best all round of these first generation jets.
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
@Xiolablu3
I found some more Datas:
Rate of Climb for the Jumo004C (...which was not the most advanced of the Jumos) at sea-level (speed 540 km/h) was 25 m/s. The HeS11 had 33 m /s ! Especially at the end of the war some jumo-jet-engines with much more performance were ready. The 109-004H had 17,7 kN instead of 10k kN (004-C) and a much more advanced model based on the same basic systems the Jumo 0121 with 27,3 KN !!
A very good english source seemes to be --> Google:"Junkers Jumo 004".
cyberOwwwOecho 1 year ago
@cyberOwwwOecho I'm sure you have heard about the immense problems, which were caused by the fact that in Germany important special alloy were not longer available in the last war-years. This was the main reason for quality-problems you described. Also piston driven fighter planes were effected to lack of high-quality-material. The Merlin-Motors had a much better endurance.
I recommend to read the englisch source I gave you below: Wikipedia "Junkers Jumo 004".
cyberOwwwOecho 1 year ago
The Me-262 changed a lot. In the specific Bomber-Altitude (arround 6-8000 Meters) they had much more power, even at maximum weight still much better climbing rates as the P-51 in normal configuration and the MK-108 was integrated in the nose - so it was very exactly and didn't cause any aerodynamic disadvantages. Due to the high speed of the Me-262 the Pilots had to slow down their machines when shooting.
But Germany suffered at the end of the war from experienced Pilots and Fuel.
cyberOwwwOecho 1 year ago
Ok then google 'Me262 Good acceleration' and see how many hits you get, zero.
I dont care who you talked too, the early jets had poor acceleration and teh Me262 had pooora acceleration FOR AN EARLY JET. Even the Gloster Meteor had better acceleration, but both were slower in acceleeration than the prop fighters of the day. We may as well stop this, cos you are such a fanboy you will not listen to reason.
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
@Xiolablu3
British RAE documents of evaluations of a captured Me262 in October 1945 showed that both thrust and rate-of-climb are reduced by nearly 50% at altitudes approaching 20 to 25 thousand feet for the Jumo 004 powered Me262. So altitude did not provide greater performance. A quick check of P-51D figures by comparison shows a greater climb rate at altitude than the Me262.
FiveCentsPlease 1 year ago
@FiveCentsPlease
For sure not. It's physics. The flowability and low temperatures of thin air in high altitudes benefits performance of jet engines. In this condition piston driven engines occure a severe loss of performance.
They need turbo-chargers to compensate the severe loss of performance in higher altitudes.
Piston driven engines are good for short runways and steep angles of climb after take-off. But at higher speed and higher altitudes jet engines have much more performance.
cyberOwwwOecho 1 year ago
@FiveCentsPlease
...and you also shouldn't confound rate of climb with angle of climb. For sure the rate of climb of the Me-262 was much higher - because it's performance was much higher - to verify this just look at the huge difference of speed !
cyberOwwwOecho 1 year ago
@cyberOwwwOecho Climb rate has nothing to do with top speed, the P51 was faster than the Spitfire IX but he Spitfire IX has a much faster climb rate.
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
@Xiolablu3
A pretty general statement, isn't it? It seemes that "altitude" doesn't exist for you.
Your Wikipedia in England confirmes:
"Conversely, the higher power of jet engines at higher speeds meant the Me 262 enjoyed a much higher rate of climb (...--> than propellers) . Used tactically, this gave the jet fighter an even greater speed advantage in climb rate than level flight at top speed."
You should believe in your own sources! ;-)
cyberOwwwOecho 1 year ago
@cyberOwwwOecho and from wikipedia (not a source, but in this case correct) - Me262 climb rate = 4000ft/m, Spitfire IX merlin 66 climb rate 5000 ft/min.
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
@Xiolablu3
Jet engines have total different climb characteristics then piston driven engines. Beside of this it depends on weight, pressure-altitude, temperature and more. Piston driven engines use to have their maximus at sea level.
So just reading from a paper the Me-109K-4 was much supperior to the Mustang in terms of climb rate, the BF-109E-3 & FW 190D-9 almost the same, the BF 109A-8 much worse. The latest Spitires and Tempest, but also Yak 3 and 9U superior.
cyberOwwwOecho 1 year ago
@Xiolablu3
I checked the Mustang F-51D Manual from 1954 and watched Military Power Climb Chart (Standard Day), Gross Weight 10.200 Pounds or less.The Maxmum is described was 2.400ft/min at 3.000 RPM, at a pressiure-altitude of 10.000 ft --> 1850ft/min at 3.000 RPM, at 15.000 ft it's 2000 ft/min. full throttle ---> most air-combats were below 18.000 ft, (30.000 ft --> 1250/ft/min.).
Wikipedia describes R/C 3,200 ft/min, for P51-H Maximum 3.300 ft (16.8 m/s). (compared to Me-109K-4: >24m/s)
cyberOwwwOecho 1 year ago
@cyberOwwwOecho Yeah the P51 has a relatively mediocre climb, it was heavier, but the SPitfire IX Merlin 66 is one of the best climbers of WW2 along with the Bf109. Both had incredible climb rates in WW2
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
@Xiolablu3 Nakajima Ki 84b had an insane climb rate, even with low octane fuel.
lemonite1 4 months ago
@Xiolablu3
Wikipedia-Values to the Ta 152 H-1: 19,2 m/s.
But the German figther aircrafts suffered a big disadvantage: They always had to fight against the Allies Fighters Aircrafts AND the Allies Bombers. So they had heavier guns to carry, especially the 30mm-MK-108 canon with a huge weight for the Bombers. So you shouldn't forget it when comparing the planes. Combat-configuration and weight is totally different. The Allies had only there M2 Browning machine guns.
cyberOwwwOecho 1 year ago
@Xiolablu3
That you don't understand anything wrong: The P-51 and even the Tempest were great planes. I would like the fly with both. Especielly the P-51 had big influence to the outcome of war. Germanys latetst airplanes came too late and if you know how they had to construct them in hidden tunnels deep in the mountains without any convenience, you would admit it even more. ;-)
cyberOwwwOecho 1 year ago
@FiveCentsPlease You are trying to convince the wrong person, its cyber0wwww)echo who believes the Me262 is leagues above everything else, I am on your side on trying to convince him reality. Spitfire IX climb rate 5000ft per minute, Me262 4000ft/min.
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
Expample from around 10,000 sources :- "Early jet engines had less thrust at low speed than piston or turboprop engines. Acceleration is relatively poor and for the Me 262 it was worse because all early jet engines responded only slowly to throttle changes."
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
@Xiolablu3
Whatever you search in Google - you will find it. Even that the world will end tomorrow. So thats a really poor argument.
Beside of this many pilots did explain their experiences and as I think, that I understand German well it would make more sense to check your tranlated sources. Beside of this I talked to a Me-262 eye to eye.
Again: Piston driven engines have poor performance in higher altitudes, the thinner the air is the more effecitve is a jet engine. Sorry, it's physics.
cyberOwwwOecho 1 year ago
1)These came into the Luftwaffe (in numbers) the last six months, correct?
2)So the pilots who flew them were novices, correct?
3) There wasn't enough of them or enough fuel for them to operate with punch?
4) Many took part in Operation Battenplate and were destroyed by their own flak?
5) In the end, these planes made a tiny impact on the airwar and their high profile now is due to their iconic status and cool looking profile?
mistersmith6000 1 year ago
The Allies didnt need this extra performance, they used 'safe' methods and as such their jets were a little slower, but their engines didnt catch fire either. The Germans HAD to 'try' pushing the envelope because they were losing.
The Meteor and the Me262 entered service the same month in 1944.
Stop your me262 fanboyism and see that all sides had jets.
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
"That one in the gentle left-hand curve! Swing her round. I was coming from underneath, eye glued to the sight (pull her tighter!). A throbbing in the wings as my cannon pounded briefly. Missed him. Way behind his tail. It was exasperating. I would never be able to shoot one down like this. They were like a sack of fleas. A prick of doubt: is this really such a good fighter? Could one in fact successfully attack a group of erratically banking fighters with the Me 262"
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
@Xiolablu3
Your citation are all from his first flight. You should read the source to the end to register that the pilots learned very fast to use the high-speed of the Me-262.
"The acceleration was poor" - rubbish. It was extremly powerfull, just in low altitude during start it took some time - like all the jets. Thats the reason why military uses piston driven engines for short runways and high angles of climb. You should go to a flight-school to understand this.
cyberOwwwOecho 1 year ago
@cyberOwwwOecho No the acceleration WAS poor, you had to slowly push the throttle or the engines caught fire or flamed out.
You dont seem to even KNOW the Me262.
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
@Xiolablu3
"you had to slowly push the throttle or the engines caught fire or flamed out."
LOL, this doesn't mean that acceleration was slow! The Me-262-Pilot praise the acceleration in each interview, one said: "It was like an angel pushing the plain ahead. What a difference to piston-drive-planes.
Some technical information: The thinner the air, the more this effekt works bei jet-engine-driven airplanes. Beside of this the Me-262 could fly turns without any loss of velocitiy.
cyberOwwwOecho 1 year ago
@cyberOwwwOecho No that doesnt mean the acceleration was poor, but it ADDED to the already poor acceleration.
The pushing by Angels comment from Galland was about the jet engine in general being behind the pilot and not being 'pulled' by a noisy propelllor in front, not about the acceleration.
The acceleration of the Me262 and early jets WAS poor compared to prop fighters, just google 'me262 poor acceleration' and read up on it, simple.
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
@cyberOwwwOecho
Much is written on how jet engines offer better efficiency at higher altitudes due to less internal drag and higher RPMs for a given fuel ratio, colder inlet temps, and overall less airframe drag, but this does not imply that they offer better performance at higher altitudes.
FiveCentsPlease 1 year ago
@Xiolablu3
The reason why piston driven plains only had a chance during landing was that it took long time to slow down the aerodynamic much more efficient jets (no prop). They had to flight several round and very view "speed-breaks". It costed some jets - but Germany hat around 1450 Me-262 in reserve - never used. Reason: Lack of fuel and pilots at the end of the war.
Forget your euphorism for the old english technic. The Me-262 definitively stopped the era of piston driven fighters.
cyberOwwwOecho 1 year ago
@cyberOwwwOecho Wrong 'jets' in general stopped the era of Piston fighters the Me262 as did the Gloster Meteor, Vampire and P80. The Germans didnt have a monopoly on jets you know.
You are just an Me262 fanboy and cant see that the Meteor entered service exactly teh same month as the Me262, The Germans were just more desperate so they put a jet into service which had eninges which flamed out and caught fire as they pushed the performance beyond the limits of the engines.
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
Johannes Steinhoff :- "I passed one that looked as if it was hanging motionless in the air (I am too fast!). The one above me went into a steep right-hand turn, his pale blue underside standing out against the purple sky. Another banked right in front of the Me's nose. Violent jolt as I flew through his airscrew eddies. Maybe a wing's length away."
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
nothing from its era compares... what a beautiful aircraft.. FW for the win
sssarsss 1 year ago
My 1st consistent kills in Aces Over Europe were in Dora9's against P51's Doras in simulater were a nightmare to be up against, but a dream come true to fly in combat, I later learned the Dora9 actually had one of the poorest turn radii, & it's roll rate wasn't quite up to the more standardised version of the Fw190's. What they did seem to have is great energy retention. In AH, I nailed several opponents by getting them to chase me,immelmenning, & hooking them from above head on.
niflap 1 year ago
the music is from beethovens moonlight, or???
...But MAN, that's orchester version plus piano, could i become a copy of this piece?
Also, great video!
mnbzxc88 1 year ago
The Focke Wulf D9-13 are so good looking planes.But to all Tempest,Mustang and SpitfireFans,dont forget the Ta 152 she was even a bit better.And dont forget the next step in aviation History ,the Me 262.
We all can be glad That Hitler dont understood the prospects such a weapon gave him.
SuperTimebandit 2 years ago 13
The ME-262 was practically garbage. It was very unstable and was about as maneuverable as a city bus. It deserves credit as being the first in the next generation of aircraft, but it was not exactly the mercedes of the air.
maddingo12 2 years ago
After war it was allied "propaganda" which maligned the 262. Keep in mind how many allied bombers were shot down by Gallands Me262 squadron "Jagdverband 44" the last weeks of war. Read "Die Ersten und die Letzten" by Adolf Galland. He said, one Me 262 was worth 5 Me 109. It was only the fact of being outnumbered that detained higher success.
Thank god
juliantom182 2 years ago
fighter aircraft are designed to be unstable, it makes them faster turning and more maneuverable. If you want stability, fly a bomber.
today`s fighters are the same way, with fly by wire controls a computer makes it easier to control the aircraft
jadger1871 2 years ago
@maddingo12 a few precisions here,it's engines had a lifespan of about 40hours,mainly because the germans couldn't find enough chrome and other rare materials to fully furbish their planes.
apart from that, the schwalbe was a jolly good plane,in the experienced hands of the jv44's "alte hasen";they proved it.
but by 1944;the luftwaffe almost only had rookies to send to the air;
with the results we know.
jetaddicted 2 years ago
@maddingo12
Your comment is also garbage. May be, because you are incapable to understand all the Me-262-pilots-interviews raving about the huge and superior capabilities of those planes. With the Me-262 it was possible to attack huge bomber formations with great success. And with the Me-262 ended the period of piston driven fighter airplanes.
cyberOwwwOecho 2 years ago
Oh great. A Germanophile who cannot tolerate someone dispelling his favorite myths of WW2 about German superiority in everything. What about dog fighting?You couldn't make sharp turns without ripping the wings. You had to make long and gradual turns; a turning ME-262 was so slow that Allied fighters would shoot most of them down in this fashion. The jet would also fly so fast that you couldn't line anyone up for a shot. An Allied fighter just had to turn right or left to avoid getting hit.
maddingo12 2 years ago
I never said that the ME-262 was not revolutionary. I said that it was a poor plane for anything else besides ambushing large formations of bombers. It was useless for dog fighting. The 262 pilots were told to avoid dogfights. The superior speed was actually a handicap. Many German pilotes have commented that the plane was so fast that they would constantly fly-by Allied fighters. They would constantly over shoot or under shoot their targets because of the speed differences.
maddingo12 2 years ago
@maddingo12
Why dogfighting slower airplanes convoying the bomber formations when not necessary? At those time "speed" was life-insurance. The "tactical initiative" was the huge advantage of the Me-262. And you forgot something absolutely important: The superior, highly efficent MK-108 Rheinmetall-30-mm-board-gun of the Me-262. Quite a few hits and the target was destroyed. German Me-262-pilots always used to say that one of this birds was substituting minimum five FW-190.
cyberOwwwOecho 2 years ago
@maddingo12
Eric Brown, a british war-pilot, testing the Me-262 after war, concluded: "In my eyes far and away the most progressiv militar-airplane at this time. A big success, which outclassed everything which was available on the allied side. Our luck was, that it wasn't available in sufficient number. to intervene. It was a airplane created for real pilots soul." And I will complete: It was available, 1433 planes were build. But pilots weren't not available anymore.
cyberOwwwOecho 2 years ago
@cyberOwwwOecho Many were built, but lost right away to bombing or on their first sortie.
VS 10,000 Spitfires, P51's, Tempests and P47's, they really didnt have a chance Probably only 1/4 of those 1433 actually survived a single sortie, if any at all. (destroyed in transit to the airfield or sitting ready to be supplied)
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
@Xiolablu3 (Part 1)
Listen to this interview from Walter Krupinski, one of the many fighter-heros of WWII, which one more then 100, 200 or 300 airfights against your Spitfires, Tempest, P51 etc.... Then you start lauging about your comment. I will help you with only one sentence: "When we had the Me-262 it was like the other fighter-planes were standing like ballons in the air" or "we had to overcome bulgs of 1500 bombers and 500 fighters with 4 or fight jets but we got them".
cyberOwwwOecho 1 year ago
@cyberOwwwOecho SO what about the return fire from bombers? Even a jet cannot outrun a bullet. The Me262 was a fantastic plane, no doubt, but not invulnerable, many were shot down. Plus they were never going to stop the RAF night bombing, not even with the ME262, and that the RAF were droppping more bombs by tonnage than the USAAF.
I think you are over-estimating the Me262. Me262 pilots ackknowledged piston engined fighters, such as the Tempest, as very dangerous to the Me262.
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
@Xiolablu3
Tempest could be fought by other German piston engine drive planes. No problem by the very routined German fighter pilots who were not send back after 10 or 15 missions like the Allies. Many of the German pilots had more than 150 air victories, some more then 300 against the Allies.
The Me-262 was build for higher tasks - fighting fighter jets and bombers together. They had the tactical offensive and alle the former pilots are telling: We felt save in the Me-262.
cyberOwwwOecho 1 year ago
@cyberOwwwOecho
I think the best engine driven airplane of the Allies by far was the P-51. Not as good like the German Ta-152 C or H (but they had not many) but much better then British stuff. Nevertheless: A good FW-190 could fight them all.
The Me-262 was only vulnerable during start&landing procedure. Once in the air it was unreachable for the Allies. Dangerous was the attack of US-Bomber (better defended then the british one and bigger) but 2-3 hits with the MK 30 were sufficient.
cyberOwwwOecho 1 year ago
@cyberOwwwOecho
I recommend you to study some German to understand the interviews of the former Me-262-Pilots to feel how relaxed they feeled in the Me-262.
The night bombing of British Bombers in Berlin could be refuse pretty effectively. In Berlin the British could not effect the same like in the defenseless Dresden (which was war-strategical insignificant) due to the night-fighting strategy "Wilde Sau". The creator is still alive and lives only 10 km from here. Interesting dialogue partner.
cyberOwwwOecho 1 year ago
@cyberOwwwOecho you are dreaming with 'what ifs'. Goebbels Diaries - The Führer than asks me over for a short visit. During the interview I have with him he is very impressed by my account of things. I give him a description of the devastation which is being wrought and tell him particularly of the increasing fury of the Mosquito raids which take place every evening. I cannot prevent myself voicing sharp criticism of Goring and the Luftwaffe.
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
@cyberOwwwOecho The P51 was half British and commisioned by the British, without them it would never have existed.
You are overestimating the Me262. The acceleration was poor, it was vulnerable on landing and take off, plus it could never have stopped the RAF night bombing campaign.
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
@Xiolablu3 (Part 2)
Listen here: watch?v=3DVdoNMeeTY
All the old German Me-262-Pilots tell the same: If they had given us the Me-262 in 1943 or early 1944 the bombing would've been stopped. No doubt.
When they are telling their stories and war-experiences in the Me-262 they are doing it continously smiling because the other planes seemed like toys in the sky.
The main problem in late 1944/early 1945 was: Lack of fuel, Lack of pilots - but enought planes (>1.500).
cyberOwwwOecho 1 year ago
@cyberOwwwOecho Plus if there was any chance of the Me262 winning air superiority, the RAF would have rushed in the up engined model of the Meteor and the Vampire (rather than holding them back and sending engines to the US for testing) As it was they took a lesuirely appraoch to jet development, and never really put the jet on anything but a slow development cycle. The war was being won by piston engined fighters, there was no need to risk giving the Germans any ideas of their own
Xiolablu3 1 year ago
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@Xiolablu3
I think the best engine driven airplane of the Allies by far was the P-51. Not as good like the German Ta-152 C or H (but they had not many) but much better then British stuff. Nevertheless: A good FW-190 could fight them all.
The Me-262 was only vulnerable during start&landing procedure. Once in the air it was unreachable for the Allies. Dangerous was the attack of US-Bomber (better defended then the british one and bigger) but 2-3 hits with the MK 30 were sufficient.
cyberOwwwOecho 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Xiolablu3
I recommend you to study some German to understand the interviews of the former Me-262-Pilots to feel how relaxed they feeled in the Me-262.
The night bombing of British Bombers in Berlin could be refuse pretty effectively. In Berlin the British could not effect the same like in the defenseless Dresden (which was war-strategical insignificant) due to the night-fighting strategy "Wilde Sau". The creator is still alive and lives only 10 km from here. Interesting dialogue partner.
cyberOwwwOecho 1 year ago
Keep in mind it was the first jet engine fighter.Just the fact that it could fly faster than any other plane at that time was a total success.
royraiden 2 years ago
Again, for the 4394380th time, I never said the plane was not revolutionary. Of course it was! But it was a poor plane for dog fighting and useless for anything else but rushing large groups of bombers from above. I'm just tired of people spouting all this romanticism of Nazi Germany like everything they did and had was the best.
maddingo12 2 years ago
Regarding the Mustang we have to keep in mind it was a mission driven aircraft that required a range or all else was moot. The merlin had its limitations. thats why the tempest I and II and sea fury utilized next generaltion power plants. Back to Dora... visit the USAF museum in Dayton Ohio and youll see a great example as well as many others.
apacheaviator1 2 years ago
I don't think the spit was even close to being the best british fighter. The Tempest I and II were by far the BESTpiston fighters of the war EITHER SIDE. We love raving about the german technology of the war, it was certainly the most advanced overall, but when it comes to recip aircraft technology the Britts were kings. I can't even begin to list the strengths of Tempest in my remaining character count. But first i'd list the wing design. My personal fav is the Dora In emergency power mode!
apacheaviator1 2 years ago 2
This plane is simply beautiful....Splendid restoration work done... Thanks 4 uploading..
dzdz80 2 years ago 2
I think I've got this right: this is a FW-190D-13, "Yellow 10," first restored by Doug Champlin in Mesa, AZ, then purchased and moved to the Seattle Air Museum. This is an EXTREMELY rare airlplane, which Mr Champlin found decades ago rotting behind some yahoo's car lot near Atlanta. Prof Tank himself helped with the restoration. Supposedly completely restored and flyable. I have two PICA model FW-190D-9s with Saito 125s, and this airplane is my obsession. Don't know why, I just love the look
networkdeath 2 years ago 8
Mostly right. Mr. Champlin had the aircraft restored in Germany after purchasing it in the 1970s. (It's a miracle the airplane survived the years of storage and neglect.) The aircraft was restored for a second time a few years ago to correct many things (such as getting the correct wings back from the NASM D9 after they were switched in error decades ago) before being sold and moved to the Seattle Air Museum. The new paint represents the colors it had when it was captured in 1945.
FiveCentsPlease 2 years ago
@FiveCentsPlease Hey thanks for that update! I have the original Yellow 10 book from the Champlin museum, and had the pleasure of having Mr Champlin give me a personal tour of his fantastic museum in Mesa way back in '01, but Yellow 10 was being restored and not viewable. Since he sold his aircraft to Seattle Air Museum I hadn't any knowledge of updates to the airframe. Thank you for the info!
networkdeath 1 month ago
@networkdeath
It will never fly because it is a rare example, but I think it would be great if the Seattle Air Museum would roll it out for engine runs. The second restoration corrected many things and the engine was checked again. When it rolled out of the restoration shop they hoped to do engine runs, but there was a tight schedule to ship it to Seattle and it never ran again.
FiveCentsPlease 1 month ago
@networkdeath
Technically, it changed hands once or twice before Champlain bought it. It spent time in California, where the buyer stripped off the paint and covered it in Zinc primer, thus erasing the original markings and history until it was restored again a few years ago. The original paddle-blade prop is missing but has been located with a private collector who will hopefully part with it one day.
FiveCentsPlease 2 months ago
An excellent video of one beautifuly restored deadly "Dora"-good for modelers research on detail-wish it were in english though
robinrrw 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
spitfire is hoter
NEEDCARS 2 years ago
Perhaps the best performing piston fighter/interceptor of WWII. Fast, powerful and climbs like a home-sick angel. I can't think of a better example an in-line retro from a rotary engine aircraft.
apacheaviator1 2 years ago
Is the dora a rotary or was it a standard juno engine from a bomber, just curious.
scottN1980 2 years ago
The Dora has an inline V12 engine, with a circular radiator at the front making it appear like a radial. The Jumo engine was mostly used in bombers, but performed well in the fighter.
FiveCentsPlease 2 years ago
It was the best Axis piston driven plane in WW2. P51/Spitfire where the best planes for the Allies. Mustangs had abit better stats then the Focke wulf, It's hard to seperate who is better when there all such amazing planes.
Turnpike256 2 years ago
Toda una chingoneria de avion
MarkFockeWulf 2 years ago
quel avion le meilleur des avions a helice allemand!!
monkeybikerss 2 years ago
du monde a cette epoque!!
monkeybikerss 2 years ago
I would sell my wife to sit in that bird.
ml191172 2 years ago 3
lol
UTubeSiteManager 2 years ago
+1 xDDDDDDDDDD
SkizzikHunter 2 years ago
lmao...what a genuine comment!!! :)
GreatRedTiger 2 years ago
Next thing your wife looks at your recent comments
abcoffofme 2 years ago
Muy bueno !! grazias por el video senior!! srry for my poor Spanish , working on that. But really , great video thx for posting!
Borat911 3 years ago
You can have your Spitfires, that is a nice looking aeroplane.
tron23149 3 years ago 2
Lol, I want that uniform!
and the plane would be nice too...
Kidding aside, the dora is arguably one of the best looking planes ever made.... Can't wait to try my RC model of it!
DannyMNL 3 years ago
That is awesome.
phippsa3 3 years ago
nice Bjarne
lierruler 3 years ago