im not sure, but in garching we also train medievial fighting by wolfgang gerleigner, and he told us, that there could be reflexes to defend your left body side, so you have your hand behind... (ok, bad english, i know :P)
People wore chainmails... Right... The Nobility did because they were the only ones that could afford one. It's like having a collection of ferrari's as underwear in terms of price...
@MadPyrotechnicus Actually, a chain armour was one of the cheapest metal armours. It took much less skill to make than a plate armour. But then again, not everyone had the money for that either.
@DiabolusIgnis What I heard by several blacksmiths in musea, "artisan villages" was that it was so expensive because it took ages to make and connect all the rings. Plate armour was expensive too because it required much more ores of metal and measuring to make it perfectly... That, I know.
@MadPyrotechnicus Depends on how you connect them. I know a person who makes chain armour in 1-in-4 pattern. He makes them with short sleeves, about to the groin in 6 months, by doing one hour of it every now and then. I believe a skilled blacksmith could make it a lot faster. Of course, any more dense pattern is harder to make, and would probably take more time. But I still do believe it was way cheaper than any full plate armour =)
@MadPyrotechnicus That's very possible, since the 1-in-4 pattern isn't as good, but weighs much less. Thus it was used mostly by lightly armoured infantry, or by soldiers in places a brigandine just couldn't protect.
What we see here is actually everyday life on the streets in every major European city today, with the violent ethnical street gangs often armed with knifes, crawling around, mugging and raping. Only its not done so throughly professional as the guys in this movie, that is.
@clinicalpsychologist they already knew it in ancient greece and i bet they already knew in old egypt and i'm pretty sure our stone age elders knew it too
Those moves are by a German "ringen" master in the manuscripts referred to as Meister Ott. Check out some videos by Ringschule Wrocław. They did some truly amazing studies on the subject.
And for you not embarrassing yourself some other time, I recommend, that you do your homework before showing your ignorance on the net in the future. :-D
Western medieval hand-to-hand combat practices were much less codified into separate styles. As such, there probably never was a name for the martial arts portrayed here. Weapon fighting did have many named schools, but I haven't heard the same of unarmed.
Anyhow, medieval martial arts were quite practically minded, as you can probably see here. Less rituals and all that. So yes, if you actually had to use self defence, I'd say that correctly utilized, much of this would help.
@FURIEREPAZZO Well, they tend to generalisation, BUT, I see no point into sending assassins to kill a peasant. I think the "people" they are talking about are rich merchands and nobility. People who are worth killing I guess... and who can afford stuff to defend themselves.
Ist es nicht Sinnvoller, den Dolch wie ein normales Schwert zu halten (also nach oben), weil man sonst schnell entwaffent werden kann, und man den Dolch so besser von unten in den Brustkorb rammen kann?
@elgostine I don't know what you mean with "side-sword". Do you mean the predecessor of the rapier? Because that is a different style of fighting, which I can't tell you nothing about. But there are a lot of techniques with the 1 handed sword, with no side-arm like a shield or a dagger, so just the 1 handed sword on its own. A lot of them are in the fighting manuals of Johannes Lecküchner, which are fighting manuals for the 1 handed sword.
@elgostine These are Langes Messer (sometimes called Großes Messer) techniques. One well known teacher of the Langes Messer was the german priest Johannes Lecküchner. Well, at least something I can be proud of as a German! xD
There are also lots of techniques for the "Leibringen", the kind of wrestling they are doing and the fighting with daggers, sources would be Codex Wallerstein and the fighting manuals of Joachim Meyer and Hans Talhoffer. These can also be used for the fighting with a single handed sword only, because you can use the different "Huten", the different stances.
@Ketilbiorn thats good because like i said, i want to get a comparison between asian and european styles of using weapons that are as close in form as possible to each other. in this case comparing to the chinese jian, theres LOTS of demonstrable techniques for that, but european equivalents are hard to find, what other swords in your opinion might matchh the jian in terms of form and function.
@Ketilbiorn the jian is in the realm of the 1 handed double edged sword essentially. often close comparisons have been made using the rapier though i was told the balance and form better match the arming sword and the like.
@elgostine Okay, but I can just tell you technique sources for the one-handed sword, not about the rapier, because it is totally different to fight with...
PLEASE DONT READ THIS. YOU WILL GET KISSED ON THE NEAREST POSSIBLE FRIDAY BY THE LOVE OF YOUR LIFE. TOMORROW WILL BE THE BEST DAY OF YOUR LIFE. HOWEVER IF YOU DONT POST THIS COMMENT something bad will happen. NOW UV STARTED READIN DIS DUNT STOP THIS IS SO SCARY. SEND THIS TO 5 VIDEOS IN 143 MINUTES WHEN UR DONE PRESS F6 AND UR CRUSHES NAME WILL APPEAR ON THE SCREEN IN BIG LETTERS. THIS IS SO SCARY CAUSE IT ACTUALLY WORKS THIS ACTUALLY WORKS
i likes the presentation of the sword techniques at the end. where can i find more examples of that, im hoping to do a comparison between european cut and thrust sword Vs the chinese jian.
@mathewgivney If you look very close, you can see some text on the screen. It reads "Asian variations provided by a guest." You might also note that his techniques rather resemble some kind of Asian martial art, perhaps the Japanese art of aikido... I'm going to go way out on a limb here and say the two factors MAY be related somehow.
@decebal01 Severance: Blade of Darkness was released February 2001 and is the very best game of its kind. An excellent story, excellent gameplay, stunning shadow effects and a really great (sword) combat system.
the left hand was the side you used to wipe after and was generaly not use alot ever in some countries its still that way and why you use your right hand to shak with
During which time ordinary people wore chainmails under their clothes,... sry but I don't think, that this is realistic... this stuff was expensive (although I'm not an expert for the time after the 14th century ;) ).
It's quite possible though, wearing mail accustoms you to weight and really trains endurance. Even if you don't get someone trying to stab you on your shopping trip it's a good fitness exercise. :P
In the 14th/15th century, chainmail was more readily available then in the centuries before, thanks to the introduction of plate. So it might be possible... It would take quite a paranoid guy to actually do it though. :P
Quite a brilliant video anyway! Especially the group combat looked impressive.
That duelling technique at the end is so dangerous to do. I don't like it at all. A good and seasoned fencer won't just let someone run past like that and doing that you risk getting stabbed or hit in the process. The only time I can think of doing that is when you are somehow too close to your opponent at the side and you have his weapon parried and you are sure he is not going to retreat quick enough to counter attack.
I think the point is to keep shuffling around the perimeter of the group, so that even though you are shoving them past you, by the point they're recoved you've already moved to have them back in your field of vision.
I don't believe it is that easy to get to close to an opponent that knows how to fence. If you look at any modern or classical fencing video you will see both fencers often keep distance from each other. One exception is armoured fencing like Kendo, heavy medieval fighting or you have a buchkler/shield. There you have something to defend yourself with even if you get close. With unarmoured fencing getting close to someone with a sword at any time is plain dangerous and desperate.
You can get this close, because they are usng messer's, which are mainly short weapons (sometimes only 70-80 cm, the average lenght is about 100 cm, the longer version, the krieg messer is about 140-150 cm, like a longsword) With such a short wepon you NEED to get close to cause damage, but it's true that you're always risking that you get hurt.
this isn't classical or renaissance gentlemen fighting, this is meant to represent the all too often clashes between gangs and personal vendettas of common medieval life. These were mostly commoners who couldn't afford anything more than a regular knife
In a "real' fight, you must close the distance more often than not. Being "at range" is dangerous, but sport fencers can play out at that range since a mistake doesn't mean death. In the historical manuals, a lot of emphasis is on closing the distance, since it's safer once you're inside. Those cross-steps are very much a part of messer fencing, and their purpose is to gain your opponent's back or side. The German group "Ochs" did a nice DVD on messer technique which shows it in detail.
Really? If ind the exact opposite is true, though I do see what you are saying. I find that modern fencers are significantly more likely to rush and try to take the initiative. I find that taking the initiative is important, but one should always play with the range before doing anything like closing the distance.
Well, duelling is dangerous, period. However, messer fencing has those kinds of oblique steps. Modern sport fencing is on a piste so things are different there. This demonstration is a bit staged for the crowd. In a real fight the moves are a lot tighter. I believe this is the Dreynshlag group. Check out their other video and the messer video by Gladiatores for a better view of messer combat. :)
This group is from Germany. I think they are doing a great job presenting their work in a 'foreign' language. A few grammar mistakes can be overlooked.
Do you know? : / I would think it's horribly painful, though I've heard of people being stabbed in a fight and saying it felt like a punch due to the addrenaline rush.
unfortunately i do. a few years back a kid cut me 3" above my knee. i bled quite a bit but it didn't hurt as i much as you would think. Apparently if a guy is pumped up enough, the blade is sharp and small enough, and the cut is quick enough its possible not to feel a thing.
I used to work with a guy from Toronto who tried to stop a fight outside of a bar one night, when one of the fighters turned and stabbed him four times: in the shoulder, neck, and arm a couple of times. He said didn't even realize he was stabbed until someone else noticed he was bleeding, he though the guy had just punched him.
Seeing your second reply in the chain, I have to apologize. That was rather, uh, unappropriate towards someone who HAS been cut. Not to mention it was a lame duck of a joke to start with.
Even salesmen wore daggers or even swords for self-defence in later Medieval times as the nobles slowly lost their monopol on fighting. I don´t know where this wearing sword/dagger=professional warrior association comes from...
In the first demonstration, I don't think a person would try to slash your back if they wanted to kill you. Wouldn't they stab you? (and would that pierce the chainmail?)
Sorry for thinking, I do really enjoy these videos, and I'm glad they were uploaded because I find them to be very interesting to watch and learn from. But in this case I was only wondering if chainmail could be pierced by a knife.
Chainmail can be pierced with a dagger as well as with a sword. It depends on you if you cut or pierce. If piercing is done strong, it´s almost like with a sword. Chain mail mostly protects against cuts, not against stab wounds.
Depends on the chainmail. there are various types of linking the rinks as well as various types of materials (various types of iron or steel). There is a type of a knit so dense, that it can withstand a bullet (tested), however it is too heavy to wear normally, so only crucial parts of body are protected by this type of knit, the rest is much more thin. And they would try to slash your back muscles if they want to immobilize you, and dont want trouble with murder in case of being caught.
Even so, the core design of Chain is to- in effect- turn the effects of a sharp edge very effectively into the effects of a blunt one, and nothing else. Chain is a soft armor, so it does not absorb impact as well as other modes of protection. And sharp points press between the links to spread them rather than having to cut through. A much easier time of it even if the mail is riveted.
You're right that not EVERYBODY weared chainmails. But the nobles, even the ones who weren't so rich, often weared chainmails. Mercenaries, knights and the regular soldiers also.
This wasn't a martial art, it's just common sense street fighting. And everyone has their own style of that, so you can't really label it as one thing.
srsly, you blind AND dumb? Timing, moves, practice, there are historic manuals on this stuff, and groups today who will train you in them. Even if it's just stuff you figured out, it's not 'just common sense'
Exactly. These are techniques that were taught in fight schools all over Europe in the Middle Ages and Renaissance. A Martial Art is a codified system of combat, and this video details that quite nicely.
Grappling is an important part of knife combat. The similarities between German Kampfringen and Japanese Ju-Jutsu are very apparent. There are only so many available ways to do things. Look on youtube for the wrestling of the medieval German master by the name of Ott and you'll see what I mean. The demo is a bit staged, but that's the whole point... it's a demo meant to entertain and inform. :)
I was a high school wrestler for 4 years, and I train in Brazillian JuJitsu now. So I get that it's important, but going to the ground when a guy's holding a sharp object probably isn't the best idea. All he has to do is flail.
True enough. But the takedowns shown are limb breaks as well, usually arm bars of some kind. Never take a knife fighter to the ground and "fight" him there. However, standup grappling is vital in knife fights. For the demonstration they have to do the takedowns/breaks safely, so the breaks are executed merely as locks. :)
there are manuals that show how to fight with small weapons as the knife or the daga and these were weapons especially used for street fighting, think about that people in florence used to wear a small buckler as an everyday cloth
i am a reenactor and a student of military history and i can say that surely
medieval europe was in constant war and personal defense was just as important as it was in the east. Hand to hand combat evolved there too but has been largely lost with the development of the gun. The Germans, for one, had a fully developed hand to hand combat system. This is what you are seeing not an eastern combat.
well- martial arts developed in almost every part of the world. however what is shown here is strikingly similar to judo. and as you said- european martial arts died out and "largely lost", so how do you figure that these men were able to retain it?
There are several surviving manuals from all over Europe. The Western Martial Arts movement is working to rediscover them, there are lots of great techniques that can be derived. Talhofer is one of the masters that still survives in grappling in weapon combat. The grappling does look like judo, likely because there are only so many ways you can grab an throw a guy.
well- i find it somewhat odd that the reason western martial arts almost became extinct is because of the arrival of guns. as for today- everyone uses guns and martial arts is more prolific then ever, so i believe your hypothesis is incorrect. btw- are you a practioner of western martial arts?
You can believe what you wish, but thems the facts. I dont believe that everyone today uses guns (im a gun owner, have yet to ever think of using it on a person). They were a bit more trigger happy in those days. hand to hand combat fell out of fashion so the schools died out. They only survived in the east out of a sense of tradition. and yes i study rapier, cut and thrust, longsword, grappling.
i mean every nation- not in any time in history did "Everyone" have guns. your hypothesis is that european martial arts gave way to guns and canons- however i say this is not logical because today- guns are more prolific then ever- and so are martial arts. so obviously the two are either unrelated- or in some strange way- symbiotic.
I dont believe that guns are more prolific. I own guns but never carry in public or have had one pointed at me. We dont live in violent times, guns and martial arts in the US are pretty much hobbies, serious ones, but not an every day life or death choice. If i did feel i lived in an area where i was in a life threatening situation, i would be taking concealed handgun classes, not dangerous grappling. This was the historic choice as well.
In america, the prevalence of firearms has not declined significantly in recent years, but in Europe, where these martial disciplines are on the rise, guns are heavily regulated. This means most of the thugs you are likely to meet are no better armed than the people in this demo, so these martial arts are an effective deterrent. Just looking at the time, (correlation is not causation) the advent of guns and the death of these arts is very close. Guns going away and their return also aligns.
XIPM3, did you know that when St. Xavier 1549 brought Christianity to Japan the Dutch introduced firearms to Japan? The Japanese even innovated on the Dutch guns. Yet when commodore Perry opened Japan to trade in 1854 there were no guns to be found. The Japanese rejected guns. It is one of the reasons that bushido and it's associated arts survive today. While in Europe the gun was adopted and people never returned to the old ways. Yet now that the guns is restricted the old ways are new again.
No. Japanees goverment just monopoliset guns. Tokugawa felt that guns are treat that can be uset against shogunate :P
For example infamous championship in Tsuruga castle that happened in 17th century were controlled by gunmen - so they could shoot any samurai who will go out of control.
IToyotomi forbad weapons to anyone exept samurai, Tokugawa kept guns to his men....
And Duthc introdused guns in 1543 - and before ens of Sengoku era count of guns in any daimyo army only increased...
Thank you for the extra depth. I will look these points up when I have more time. This is a topic and period of time that I have only recently became aware of and I appreciate any opportunity to learn more about it. Your points will make my searches easier. Again thank you. :)
If you want to see a modern form of western martial arts, i suggest looking at French Savate a kick boxing form, derived from single stick, which was derived from 17th century rapier combat. very nasty form.
About sambo, it included judo and various forms of wrestling. Some were Middle Eastern, some were Russian and some were European. Yes, you are right that the unarmed portions of European martial arts, as well the ones about the usage of and defense against a knife have survived. But in the battlefields of Europe, you would see polearms, crushing weapons like axes and maces and swords(and bows of course). Even sports fencing isn't close to rapier fencing! It's those weapons that were forgotten.
Today we have the luxury of time and resources. Also, people train martial arts mainly as a hobby and stress relief, since there are other options for self defense.
When martial arts were mainly used by the military, they got dropped because firearms were much more effective in large scale warfare. When people had to work all day to get by, they wouldn't really care about learning a martial arts, so they became extinct. The main reason they are revived is interest in heritage, not practicality.
Yes, modern military combatives include a large amount of European martial arts, even though most people think it's all jujitsu. That is especially obvious when you compare most of their techniques with those in historical combat manuals. There is also wrestling and boxing that was created by a rapier and quarterstaff fencer and originally included some wrestling. But when you talk about HEMA, what first comes to mind is swords, polearms, etc. that went extinct. Sorry for the misunderstanding :)
Combat manuals, written by those that taught the style in Europe. The only one, of which I am aware, which has been completely lost is the Druidic/Celtic form which only survives in the form of the Scottish River dances which are believed to have been a form of practice for combat. This is mostly because their great teachers did not write them down.
This is good stuff. The only problem I see is most of this knife work was prepared for wearing armor, without it your asking to get cut bad. Which means a massive indorphins rush which not many people cannot fight through (It's like being REALY high on opium based drugs.) But even with that there was a lot of good knife work in there!!!! And good swordsmanship!!!
Actually, most of the manuals at the time specifically show dagger fighting. My experience with rondels suggests they aren't that good at slashing, but they stab terrifyingly well. In addition, people would almost always be wearing what would be considered "padded armour" today. Although, yes, some of these techniques would only end in pain in a t-shirt.
Most but not all medieval-renaissance daggers were heavily thrust-oriented and they needed to be stiff to have a good chance at penetrating mail.Thus they were usually but not always narrow and thick with quite high edge degree which doesn't allow for slices at all. Normal chopping would in most cases result in broken bones only(if the proper bones are targeted like collarbone, hand, wrist, etc). If either of the fighters have a dagger that can cut nicely as well, the fight changes considerably.
This was great. I liked the "asian variation guest" too. But I must admit, he really got you in the "unexpected" area. But both styles looks remarkably similar.
I guess humans all learn to kill each other in relatively the same way.
I'm not sure that the guest really won in the uncoreographed fights because I think they were demonstrating uncoreographed defenses from the guest. I think that it was his reaction that was uncoreographed because they guy in the tights used the same attack each time and THAT attack was most definately staged, IMHO. I think that it was to show the strength of the guest not the weakness of the westerners, if you understand me.
these were indeed unexpected attacks, bro. besides that i had 38°C fever by that time, i was sick. so we decided to make them as obvious as possible, but in any case no choreography.
im not sure, but in garching we also train medievial fighting by wolfgang gerleigner, and he told us, that there could be reflexes to defend your left body side, so you have your hand behind... (ok, bad english, i know :P)
AuGeUNDoHr1 1 month ago
i like the first music that plays
l3054 4 months ago
3:45 to 3:57 lol the only time a knife throw would actually work.
csmith2985 5 months ago
nice work guys!
putronicus 7 months ago
People wore chainmails... Right... The Nobility did because they were the only ones that could afford one. It's like having a collection of ferrari's as underwear in terms of price...
MadPyrotechnicus 7 months ago
@MadPyrotechnicus Actually, a chain armour was one of the cheapest metal armours. It took much less skill to make than a plate armour. But then again, not everyone had the money for that either.
DiabolusIgnis 6 months ago in playlist Fencing.
@DiabolusIgnis What I heard by several blacksmiths in musea, "artisan villages" was that it was so expensive because it took ages to make and connect all the rings. Plate armour was expensive too because it required much more ores of metal and measuring to make it perfectly... That, I know.
MadPyrotechnicus 6 months ago
@MadPyrotechnicus Depends on how you connect them. I know a person who makes chain armour in 1-in-4 pattern. He makes them with short sleeves, about to the groin in 6 months, by doing one hour of it every now and then. I believe a skilled blacksmith could make it a lot faster. Of course, any more dense pattern is harder to make, and would probably take more time. But I still do believe it was way cheaper than any full plate armour =)
DiabolusIgnis 6 months ago
@DiabolusIgnis I might be wrong about this but the ones I saw were 1-in-8?
MadPyrotechnicus 6 months ago
@MadPyrotechnicus That's very possible, since the 1-in-4 pattern isn't as good, but weighs much less. Thus it was used mostly by lightly armoured infantry, or by soldiers in places a brigandine just couldn't protect.
DiabolusIgnis 6 months ago
What we see here is actually everyday life on the streets in every major European city today, with the violent ethnical street gangs often armed with knifes, crawling around, mugging and raping. Only its not done so throughly professional as the guys in this movie, that is.
Stordongen 8 months ago
I like the section around 4.00 strikes to neck, armpit and thighs, the traditional places to strike against someone wearing body armour.
KTo288 8 months ago
Nicely done, guys!
MotusSwordsmanship 9 months ago
The Asian Art was Aikido, if anyone cares? 8)
the26thhour 9 months ago 3
The guy in blue clothes is really good
teddywinroth 10 months ago
I love how the Asian counterpart's moves are based the same as a wrestling move known as "The Russian."
NorwegianFlag 10 months ago
funny, I don't think that in medival times they knew to perform martial arts moves. Sorry 0:27
clinicalpsychologist 11 months ago
@clinicalpsychologist could you tell us what are your arguments ? Have you already read medieval manuscripts ?
MriKentin 11 months ago
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@clinicalpsychologist could you tell us what are your arguments ? Have you already read medieval manuscripts ?
MriKentin 11 months ago
@clinicalpsychologist
there are some remaining manuscripts detailing sword, hand to hand and some other styles of combat
get your facts straight, not opinions
sorry
metaldo0d 10 months ago
@clinicalpsychologist they already knew it in ancient greece and i bet they already knew in old egypt and i'm pretty sure our stone age elders knew it too
darkfiete 10 months ago
@clinicalpsychologist
Those moves are by a German "ringen" master in the manuscripts referred to as Meister Ott. Check out some videos by Ringschule Wrocław. They did some truly amazing studies on the subject.
And for you not embarrassing yourself some other time, I recommend, that you do your homework before showing your ignorance on the net in the future. :-D
Jenssssssssssssssss 9 months ago
whatever. I am smarter than you in everything else :D
clinicalpsychologist 9 months ago
@clinicalpsychologist
You forgot to do your homework once more ;-)
Jenssssssssssssssss 9 months ago
Great job! That was some cool Rockin!
incantatis 11 months ago
Fantastic work really would not want too get on the wrong side of these guys
CichlidAsh 11 months ago
If you studied various Medieval Martial Arts could it actually benefit your Self Defence or Martial Art training?
What is this Martial Art called?
I was thinking of studying this and an Ancient Greek Martial Art (Used For Greek Olympic Games) called: Pankration.
TheAikidoBush 11 months ago
@TheAikidoBush
Western medieval hand-to-hand combat practices were much less codified into separate styles. As such, there probably never was a name for the martial arts portrayed here. Weapon fighting did have many named schools, but I haven't heard the same of unarmed.
Anyhow, medieval martial arts were quite practically minded, as you can probably see here. Less rituals and all that. So yes, if you actually had to use self defence, I'd say that correctly utilized, much of this would help.
Nakedspaceman1 10 months ago
youtube.com/watch?v=Cq-IM_GWGis
andreizotov1234 11 months ago
They would kick my but, Great vid.
tganzrussell 11 months ago
Thanks guys! Great show
faceleg 1 year ago
oh girls. what are you doing with all those daggers and stuff? shouldn't you be in the kitchen or something?
sirVhailor 1 year ago
0:40 "people often wear chainmail under their jackets"??? Really?? They were all rich??
FURIEREPAZZO 1 year ago
@FURIEREPAZZO Well, they tend to generalisation, BUT, I see no point into sending assassins to kill a peasant. I think the "people" they are talking about are rich merchands and nobility. People who are worth killing I guess... and who can afford stuff to defend themselves.
maaderllin 11 months ago
@FURIEREPAZZO People know so much about history...
Ittosai 11 months ago
Ist es nicht Sinnvoller, den Dolch wie ein normales Schwert zu halten (also nach oben), weil man sonst schnell entwaffent werden kann, und man den Dolch so besser von unten in den Brustkorb rammen kann?
mrfeXX 1 year ago
@elgostine I don't know what you mean with "side-sword". Do you mean the predecessor of the rapier? Because that is a different style of fighting, which I can't tell you nothing about. But there are a lot of techniques with the 1 handed sword, with no side-arm like a shield or a dagger, so just the 1 handed sword on its own. A lot of them are in the fighting manuals of Johannes Lecküchner, which are fighting manuals for the 1 handed sword.
Ketilbiorn 1 year ago
The Asian style looks way more elegant, the European one is rathe hacking and slashing, but killing shouldn't be something for the looks.
Mutedmouth 1 year ago
whats the name of the one handed sword techniques?
elgostine 1 year ago
@elgostine These are Langes Messer (sometimes called Großes Messer) techniques. One well known teacher of the Langes Messer was the german priest Johannes Lecküchner. Well, at least something I can be proud of as a German! xD
Ketilbiorn 1 year ago
@Ketilbiorn so are there ANY techniques for the 1 handed armingsword on its own? or even the side sword?
elgostine 1 year ago
@elgostine
There are also lots of techniques for the "Leibringen", the kind of wrestling they are doing and the fighting with daggers, sources would be Codex Wallerstein and the fighting manuals of Joachim Meyer and Hans Talhoffer. These can also be used for the fighting with a single handed sword only, because you can use the different "Huten", the different stances.
Ketilbiorn 1 year ago
@Ketilbiorn thats good because like i said, i want to get a comparison between asian and european styles of using weapons that are as close in form as possible to each other. in this case comparing to the chinese jian, theres LOTS of demonstrable techniques for that, but european equivalents are hard to find, what other swords in your opinion might matchh the jian in terms of form and function.
elgostine 1 year ago
@elgostine Sorry,but I don't know nothing about the function of the jian, so its hard to tell an equivalent...
But i would say that a Spatha or a normal Onehanded Sword would match the jian.
Ketilbiorn 1 year ago
@Ketilbiorn the jian is in the realm of the 1 handed double edged sword essentially. often close comparisons have been made using the rapier though i was told the balance and form better match the arming sword and the like.
elgostine 1 year ago
@elgostine Okay, but I can just tell you technique sources for the one-handed sword, not about the rapier, because it is totally different to fight with...
Ketilbiorn 1 year ago
grosses messer!!!!! yeeeeh! my favourite
DomusUlixes 1 year ago
Great! Now we can see the origins of modern European wrestling!!
peterkvideo 1 year ago
hmm some of those moves are impressing and usefull in this century too
Byakuyasbrother 1 year ago
you can see and use some of these tactics in Assassin's Creed 2.
Dragonfist12185 1 year ago
this stuff look real
freefallman224 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
PLEASE DONT READ THIS. YOU WILL GET KISSED ON THE NEAREST POSSIBLE FRIDAY BY THE LOVE OF YOUR LIFE. TOMORROW WILL BE THE BEST DAY OF YOUR LIFE. HOWEVER IF YOU DONT POST THIS COMMENT something bad will happen. NOW UV STARTED READIN DIS DUNT STOP THIS IS SO SCARY. SEND THIS TO 5 VIDEOS IN 143 MINUTES WHEN UR DONE PRESS F6 AND UR CRUSHES NAME WILL APPEAR ON THE SCREEN IN BIG LETTERS. THIS IS SO SCARY CAUSE IT ACTUALLY WORKS THIS ACTUALLY WORKS
998989899998 1 year ago
Excellent! I love the fact of including other cultures variations. *****!
VegaEtereo 1 year ago
i likes the presentation of the sword techniques at the end. where can i find more examples of that, im hoping to do a comparison between european cut and thrust sword Vs the chinese jian.
elgostine 1 year ago
my question is; Why is the man in blue wearing JAPANESE hakama?
mathewgivney 1 year ago
@mathewgivney If you look very close, you can see some text on the screen. It reads "Asian variations provided by a guest." You might also note that his techniques rather resemble some kind of Asian martial art, perhaps the Japanese art of aikido... I'm going to go way out on a limb here and say the two factors MAY be related somehow.
joiless 1 year ago
1:27 is that a lawn mower?
ANZACJugger0 2 years ago
Real combat isn't that pretty.
kegmonkey 2 years ago
@kegmonkey Tell that to the kung fu movie makers :)
nielsdejong 1 year ago
@nielsdejong Gladly. Give me some E-Mail adresses or phone numbers.
kegmonkey 1 year ago
@kegmonkey
Just look it up on google and IMDB :) they have a wide network :)
nielsdejong 1 year ago
@kegmonkey it only looks "pretty" because you're not afraid, knowing that nobody will die.
Mduenisch 1 year ago
Any idea what's the background music exactly, until third minut that is??
AryanSturm 2 years ago
it is soundtrack from severance:blade of darkness. a computergame from the 90's
decebal01 2 years ago
@decebal01 Severance: Blade of Darkness was released February 2001 and is the very best game of its kind. An excellent story, excellent gameplay, stunning shadow effects and a really great (sword) combat system.
sinen0mine 1 year ago
Great choreography...
Quillons1 2 years ago
why arent they using their left hands for the sword bit?
artiepoore 2 years ago
The left hand is held behind, because otherwise it could be sniped by a fast strike.
Ranziel1 2 years ago 6
@Ranziel1 i prefer to have my left hand in front of me, use it to catch the enemies hand or weapons,
and you have alot better balance with your left hand in front of you
sanderwp94 8 months ago
the left hand was the side you used to wipe after and was generaly not use alot ever in some countries its still that way and why you use your right hand to shak with
kokofan50 2 years ago
During which time ordinary people wore chainmails under their clothes,... sry but I don't think, that this is realistic... this stuff was expensive (although I'm not an expert for the time after the 14th century ;) ).
but you did a gods work... nice show!
VladTaltos01 2 years ago
It's quite possible though, wearing mail accustoms you to weight and really trains endurance. Even if you don't get someone trying to stab you on your shopping trip it's a good fitness exercise. :P
halfassedfart 2 years ago
In the 14th/15th century, chainmail was more readily available then in the centuries before, thanks to the introduction of plate. So it might be possible... It would take quite a paranoid guy to actually do it though. :P
Quite a brilliant video anyway! Especially the group combat looked impressive.
0Felisenus0 2 years ago
Hehe, my name is Christian too, and I am doing a "samurai" too :P Anyway, that's some really nice stuff presented here. Really nice!
basilolo 2 years ago
looks like much fun... reminds me I need more skill in not only defending from knife attacks, but also utilizing them efficiently and effectively.
Igotanewflashdrive 2 years ago
A lot of the blade work reminds me of Filopino Kali
kosh1969 2 years ago
That duelling technique at the end is so dangerous to do. I don't like it at all. A good and seasoned fencer won't just let someone run past like that and doing that you risk getting stabbed or hit in the process. The only time I can think of doing that is when you are somehow too close to your opponent at the side and you have his weapon parried and you are sure he is not going to retreat quick enough to counter attack.
Solombas 2 years ago
I think the point is to keep shuffling around the perimeter of the group, so that even though you are shoving them past you, by the point they're recoved you've already moved to have them back in your field of vision.
hybredmoon 2 years ago
I don't believe it is that easy to get to close to an opponent that knows how to fence. If you look at any modern or classical fencing video you will see both fencers often keep distance from each other. One exception is armoured fencing like Kendo, heavy medieval fighting or you have a buchkler/shield. There you have something to defend yourself with even if you get close. With unarmoured fencing getting close to someone with a sword at any time is plain dangerous and desperate.
Solombas 2 years ago
You can get this close, because they are usng messer's, which are mainly short weapons (sometimes only 70-80 cm, the average lenght is about 100 cm, the longer version, the krieg messer is about 140-150 cm, like a longsword) With such a short wepon you NEED to get close to cause damage, but it's true that you're always risking that you get hurt.
gemkapocs 2 years ago
this isn't classical or renaissance gentlemen fighting, this is meant to represent the all too often clashes between gangs and personal vendettas of common medieval life. These were mostly commoners who couldn't afford anything more than a regular knife
harteryan 2 years ago
In a "real' fight, you must close the distance more often than not. Being "at range" is dangerous, but sport fencers can play out at that range since a mistake doesn't mean death. In the historical manuals, a lot of emphasis is on closing the distance, since it's safer once you're inside. Those cross-steps are very much a part of messer fencing, and their purpose is to gain your opponent's back or side. The German group "Ochs" did a nice DVD on messer technique which shows it in detail.
Kunstdesfechtens 2 years ago
Really? If ind the exact opposite is true, though I do see what you are saying. I find that modern fencers are significantly more likely to rush and try to take the initiative. I find that taking the initiative is important, but one should always play with the range before doing anything like closing the distance.
GecSword 2 years ago
Well, duelling is dangerous, period. However, messer fencing has those kinds of oblique steps. Modern sport fencing is on a piste so things are different there. This demonstration is a bit staged for the crowd. In a real fight the moves are a lot tighter. I believe this is the Dreynshlag group. Check out their other video and the messer video by Gladiatores for a better view of messer combat. :)
Kunstdesfechtens 2 years ago
not dreynschlag (who are awesome) but blossfechter. cheers
MarkHolgate 2 years ago
Interesting display.
schizoidboy 2 years ago
Very nice. I like how they seemed to compare european techniques to a few asian ones.
I'd love to lean both. Both seem just as effective. Between the excellent grapples, and the carefully placed stabs... it's all very professional.
davedetrick 2 years ago
I'd like to see all of the most efficient parts of Eastern and Western martial arts combined...
Ieatbabyseals 2 years ago
Very nice.
majnos 2 years ago
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0:35 "People often weared"? WTF Learn to spell, people.
DreadedGuardian 2 years ago
This group is from Germany. I think they are doing a great job presenting their work in a 'foreign' language. A few grammar mistakes can be overlooked.
Djemps 2 years ago 36
Is that Aikido later on in the vid?
NetVoyagerOne 2 years ago 2
old jujutsu from an old japanese school (koryu)
decebal01 2 years ago 2
european martial arts is its own thing.
nyk31 2 years ago
0:30 Osoto Gari!
spookyactionat 2 years ago
I love the "stab him with his own hat" technique. Priceless.
NevTheDeranged 2 years ago
i wonder if any of these guys actually know how it feels to get cut...
impretty321 3 years ago
Do you know? : / I would think it's horribly painful, though I've heard of people being stabbed in a fight and saying it felt like a punch due to the addrenaline rush.
000majorwinters000 3 years ago
unfortunately i do. a few years back a kid cut me 3" above my knee. i bled quite a bit but it didn't hurt as i much as you would think. Apparently if a guy is pumped up enough, the blade is sharp and small enough, and the cut is quick enough its possible not to feel a thing.
impretty321 3 years ago
I used to work with a guy from Toronto who tried to stop a fight outside of a bar one night, when one of the fighters turned and stabbed him four times: in the shoulder, neck, and arm a couple of times. He said didn't even realize he was stabbed until someone else noticed he was bleeding, he though the guy had just punched him.
TraIveN 3 years ago 2
interesting
impretty321 3 years ago
I find myself to be under the impression that getting cut is rather a bit of a, say, once-in-a-lifetime experience.
UnclePutte 3 years ago
hopefully yes.
impretty321 3 years ago
Seeing your second reply in the chain, I have to apologize. That was rather, uh, unappropriate towards someone who HAS been cut. Not to mention it was a lame duck of a joke to start with.
UnclePutte 3 years ago
Even salesmen wore daggers or even swords for self-defence in later Medieval times as the nobles slowly lost their monopol on fighting. I don´t know where this wearing sword/dagger=professional warrior association comes from...
dermitemschwerttanzt 3 years ago
lol! I would definitely wear one too though. Better to be safe.
000majorwinters000 3 years ago
In the first demonstration, I don't think a person would try to slash your back if they wanted to kill you. Wouldn't they stab you? (and would that pierce the chainmail?)
000majorwinters000 3 years ago
if this is substantiated by medieval fencing manuscripts and it´s properly played, i don´t see any reason to comment this in such way just learn...
cipoSVK 3 years ago
Sorry for thinking, I do really enjoy these videos, and I'm glad they were uploaded because I find them to be very interesting to watch and learn from. But in this case I was only wondering if chainmail could be pierced by a knife.
000majorwinters000 3 years ago
Chainmail can be pierced with a dagger as well as with a sword. It depends on you if you cut or pierce. If piercing is done strong, it´s almost like with a sword. Chain mail mostly protects against cuts, not against stab wounds.
cipoSVK 3 years ago
Ah, okay. Thanks, that's precisely what I was wondering!
000majorwinters000 3 years ago
Depends on the chainmail. there are various types of linking the rinks as well as various types of materials (various types of iron or steel). There is a type of a knit so dense, that it can withstand a bullet (tested), however it is too heavy to wear normally, so only crucial parts of body are protected by this type of knit, the rest is much more thin. And they would try to slash your back muscles if they want to immobilize you, and dont want trouble with murder in case of being caught.
Nuseth 3 years ago
Interesting, I hadn't known that.
000majorwinters000 3 years ago
Even so, the core design of Chain is to- in effect- turn the effects of a sharp edge very effectively into the effects of a blunt one, and nothing else. Chain is a soft armor, so it does not absorb impact as well as other modes of protection. And sharp points press between the links to spread them rather than having to cut through. A much easier time of it even if the mail is riveted.
Spiritrunner6 2 years ago
"people often weared chainmails..." lol
impretty321 3 years ago
You're right that not EVERYBODY weared chainmails. But the nobles, even the ones who weren't so rich, often weared chainmails. Mercenaries, knights and the regular soldiers also.
gemkapocs 3 years ago
how the fuck do you weared something?
impretty321 3 years ago
i'm not english, i don't understand......
calmandweak 2 years ago
Klasse!!!
bonebroker69 3 years ago
Bravo! Well done, and beautifully executed. Which manuals did you take some of these moves from?
drake919 3 years ago
The music for you video, what the name of the song?
DeepvoiceED 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
what land is this in netherlands we gotta much better fighters
Yackiz 3 years ago
that dagger toss was smooth. i didnt even notice it
brothlick 3 years ago
This wasn't a martial art, it's just common sense street fighting. And everyone has their own style of that, so you can't really label it as one thing.
MarcusDBrutus 3 years ago
srsly, you blind AND dumb? Timing, moves, practice, there are historic manuals on this stuff, and groups today who will train you in them. Even if it's just stuff you figured out, it's not 'just common sense'
winnebago2 3 years ago 7
Exactly. These are techniques that were taught in fight schools all over Europe in the Middle Ages and Renaissance. A Martial Art is a codified system of combat, and this video details that quite nicely.
Kunstdesfechtens 3 years ago
Kind of looks like live action role playing (LARPing) to me. With some wrestling and jujistu thrown in.
MarcusDBrutus 3 years ago
Grappling is an important part of knife combat. The similarities between German Kampfringen and Japanese Ju-Jutsu are very apparent. There are only so many available ways to do things. Look on youtube for the wrestling of the medieval German master by the name of Ott and you'll see what I mean. The demo is a bit staged, but that's the whole point... it's a demo meant to entertain and inform. :)
Kunstdesfechtens 3 years ago 2
I was a high school wrestler for 4 years, and I train in Brazillian JuJitsu now. So I get that it's important, but going to the ground when a guy's holding a sharp object probably isn't the best idea. All he has to do is flail.
MarcusDBrutus 3 years ago
True enough. But the takedowns shown are limb breaks as well, usually arm bars of some kind. Never take a knife fighter to the ground and "fight" him there. However, standup grappling is vital in knife fights. For the demonstration they have to do the takedowns/breaks safely, so the breaks are executed merely as locks. :)
Kunstdesfechtens 3 years ago
this isn't true
there are manuals that show how to fight with small weapons as the knife or the daga and these were weapons especially used for street fighting, think about that people in florence used to wear a small buckler as an everyday cloth
i am a reenactor and a student of military history and i can say that surely
Skioppi 3 years ago 2
whats the song beginning at 3:30? sounds really epic!
good demo btw!
Kaeltetod 3 years ago
its the start of the battle bots show song thingy i think
monkeyishi 3 years ago
It's actually the theme of Requiem for a Dream, so not even close.
MarcusDBrutus 3 years ago
go samurai!!!
mustbe18 3 years ago
Fantastic video guys, love the kit and the techniques are beautifully done.
Scropecaptayne 3 years ago
Very cool demonstration. It would have been great to see it in person.
JohnRaptor 3 years ago
dude whats the name of the song at the end of the video ? nice art by the way
leogan 3 years ago
You guys are the shit!!@
Sirduckly 3 years ago
Hi!Do somebody know what is the second track(music) under this movie?
GaladhilHUN 3 years ago
hihi.. abensberger vor!!
e1Arthuro 3 years ago
this is cool, but also a little stupid in a way. denizens of medieval europe did not employ the use of eastern martial arts as depicted.
XIPM3 3 years ago
what? The only guy using eastern arts was their guest
animematt 3 years ago
medieval europe was in constant war and personal defense was just as important as it was in the east. Hand to hand combat evolved there too but has been largely lost with the development of the gun. The Germans, for one, had a fully developed hand to hand combat system. This is what you are seeing not an eastern combat.
vectorb 3 years ago
well- martial arts developed in almost every part of the world. however what is shown here is strikingly similar to judo. and as you said- european martial arts died out and "largely lost", so how do you figure that these men were able to retain it?
XIPM3 3 years ago
There are several surviving manuals from all over Europe. The Western Martial Arts movement is working to rediscover them, there are lots of great techniques that can be derived. Talhofer is one of the masters that still survives in grappling in weapon combat. The grappling does look like judo, likely because there are only so many ways you can grab an throw a guy.
vectorb 3 years ago
well- i find it somewhat odd that the reason western martial arts almost became extinct is because of the arrival of guns. as for today- everyone uses guns and martial arts is more prolific then ever, so i believe your hypothesis is incorrect. btw- are you a practioner of western martial arts?
XIPM3 3 years ago
You can believe what you wish, but thems the facts. I dont believe that everyone today uses guns (im a gun owner, have yet to ever think of using it on a person). They were a bit more trigger happy in those days. hand to hand combat fell out of fashion so the schools died out. They only survived in the east out of a sense of tradition. and yes i study rapier, cut and thrust, longsword, grappling.
vectorb 3 years ago
i mean every nation- not in any time in history did "Everyone" have guns. your hypothesis is that european martial arts gave way to guns and canons- however i say this is not logical because today- guns are more prolific then ever- and so are martial arts. so obviously the two are either unrelated- or in some strange way- symbiotic.
XIPM3 3 years ago
I dont believe that guns are more prolific. I own guns but never carry in public or have had one pointed at me. We dont live in violent times, guns and martial arts in the US are pretty much hobbies, serious ones, but not an every day life or death choice. If i did feel i lived in an area where i was in a life threatening situation, i would be taking concealed handgun classes, not dangerous grappling. This was the historic choice as well.
vectorb 3 years ago
see that is where you are wrong- because now more then ever are guns prolific.
XIPM3 3 years ago
In america, the prevalence of firearms has not declined significantly in recent years, but in Europe, where these martial disciplines are on the rise, guns are heavily regulated. This means most of the thugs you are likely to meet are no better armed than the people in this demo, so these martial arts are an effective deterrent. Just looking at the time, (correlation is not causation) the advent of guns and the death of these arts is very close. Guns going away and their return also aligns.
Rihanshu 2 years ago
XIPM3, did you know that when St. Xavier 1549 brought Christianity to Japan the Dutch introduced firearms to Japan? The Japanese even innovated on the Dutch guns. Yet when commodore Perry opened Japan to trade in 1854 there were no guns to be found. The Japanese rejected guns. It is one of the reasons that bushido and it's associated arts survive today. While in Europe the gun was adopted and people never returned to the old ways. Yet now that the guns is restricted the old ways are new again.
piwright42 2 years ago
No. Japanees goverment just monopoliset guns. Tokugawa felt that guns are treat that can be uset against shogunate :P
For example infamous championship in Tsuruga castle that happened in 17th century were controlled by gunmen - so they could shoot any samurai who will go out of control.
IToyotomi forbad weapons to anyone exept samurai, Tokugawa kept guns to his men....
And Duthc introdused guns in 1543 - and before ens of Sengoku era count of guns in any daimyo army only increased...
RedMarxMan 2 years ago
Thank you for the extra depth. I will look these points up when I have more time. This is a topic and period of time that I have only recently became aware of and I appreciate any opportunity to learn more about it. Your points will make my searches easier. Again thank you. :)
piwright42 2 years ago
You welcome :) And i miswrote also not dutch, but portugeese inrodused firearms to japaneese :P
RedMarxMan 2 years ago
If you want to see a modern form of western martial arts, i suggest looking at French Savate a kick boxing form, derived from single stick, which was derived from 17th century rapier combat. very nasty form.
vectorb 3 years ago
what about sambo- do you know anything about that?
XIPM3 3 years ago
About sambo, it included judo and various forms of wrestling. Some were Middle Eastern, some were Russian and some were European. Yes, you are right that the unarmed portions of European martial arts, as well the ones about the usage of and defense against a knife have survived. But in the battlefields of Europe, you would see polearms, crushing weapons like axes and maces and swords(and bows of course). Even sports fencing isn't close to rapier fencing! It's those weapons that were forgotten.
Kantzarakos 3 years ago
Today we have the luxury of time and resources. Also, people train martial arts mainly as a hobby and stress relief, since there are other options for self defense.
When martial arts were mainly used by the military, they got dropped because firearms were much more effective in large scale warfare. When people had to work all day to get by, they wouldn't really care about learning a martial arts, so they became extinct. The main reason they are revived is interest in heritage, not practicality.
Kantzarakos 3 years ago
i disagree, martial arts and combat training is still employed by military personal. spetznaz, mossad, delta force, etc.
XIPM3 3 years ago
Yes, modern military combatives include a large amount of European martial arts, even though most people think it's all jujitsu. That is especially obvious when you compare most of their techniques with those in historical combat manuals. There is also wrestling and boxing that was created by a rapier and quarterstaff fencer and originally included some wrestling. But when you talk about HEMA, what first comes to mind is swords, polearms, etc. that went extinct. Sorry for the misunderstanding :)
Kantzarakos 3 years ago
Combat manuals, written by those that taught the style in Europe. The only one, of which I am aware, which has been completely lost is the Druidic/Celtic form which only survives in the form of the Scottish River dances which are believed to have been a form of practice for combat. This is mostly because their great teachers did not write them down.
Rihanshu 2 years ago 2
This is good stuff. The only problem I see is most of this knife work was prepared for wearing armor, without it your asking to get cut bad. Which means a massive indorphins rush which not many people cannot fight through (It's like being REALY high on opium based drugs.) But even with that there was a lot of good knife work in there!!!! And good swordsmanship!!!
applejuiceii 3 years ago
Actually, most of the manuals at the time specifically show dagger fighting. My experience with rondels suggests they aren't that good at slashing, but they stab terrifyingly well. In addition, people would almost always be wearing what would be considered "padded armour" today. Although, yes, some of these techniques would only end in pain in a t-shirt.
cknapp2 3 years ago
Most but not all medieval-renaissance daggers were heavily thrust-oriented and they needed to be stiff to have a good chance at penetrating mail.Thus they were usually but not always narrow and thick with quite high edge degree which doesn't allow for slices at all. Normal chopping would in most cases result in broken bones only(if the proper bones are targeted like collarbone, hand, wrist, etc). If either of the fighters have a dagger that can cut nicely as well, the fight changes considerably.
Soreth 3 years ago
Awesome vid. During the Drunken brawl scene, where did those grappling techniques originate from? Any particular manual?
Gunyo 3 years ago
awesome!5/5
argonald 3 years ago
NICE!!!
Glad to see the aiki guy in action!
dinohunterpoa 3 years ago 2
Nice video you got there. You did a nice job mixing show with clear demonstration of technique and kept it realisic.
BTW: Can you tell music is playing as backgroud? I really liked it.
Azri686 3 years ago
the first one is from a game called severance, and the second one the soundtrack of Requiem of dreams(lux aeterna)
decebal01 3 years ago
This was great. I liked the "asian variation guest" too. But I must admit, he really got you in the "unexpected" area. But both styles looks remarkably similar.
I guess humans all learn to kill each other in relatively the same way.
animematt 3 years ago 7
I'm not sure that the guest really won in the uncoreographed fights because I think they were demonstrating uncoreographed defenses from the guest. I think that it was his reaction that was uncoreographed because they guy in the tights used the same attack each time and THAT attack was most definately staged, IMHO. I think that it was to show the strength of the guest not the weakness of the westerners, if you understand me.
GecSword 3 years ago
This looks really impressive. Both yourselves AND your guest! What are you called, do you have a website?
Greetings from Langenort, The Netherlands
skwuig 3 years ago
they also got zweihander (german for two handed swords) they could be 5 feet tall greatswords :)
pointy shoes or not, if someone attacks me with that i damn right get imposed XD
nielsdejong 4 years ago
.....
ahem: it is authentical european medieval martial arts which is over 1000 years old
dude, didnt you ever wander why they called the arts: "martial arts" better known as: the arts of mars: the roman god of war
shees, what did you think knights did? mindlessly hit each other with a stick :(
nielsdejong 4 years ago 5
these were indeed unexpected attacks, bro. besides that i had 38°C fever by that time, i was sick. so we decided to make them as obvious as possible, but in any case no choreography.
decebal01 4 years ago