You know, there are many different religions out there, and I'm going to respect every single one of them, but I think everyone needs to give us respect to. Think to yourself, how much do you honestly know about this church? Not everything you hear is true. And you also don't know everything that maybe you should. Dint judge before you know all the facts is all I'm saying.
This is the most beautiful song I have ever heard. I keep listing to it over and over. It makes me cry, it makes me feel close to Jesus and helps me to start forgiving myself.
Hi,my name is Amy Bruce. i am 7 years old ,and i have severe lung cancer. I also have a large tumor in my brain from repeted beatings. Doctors say i will die soon if this isin't fixed and my family can't pay the bills. The Make A Wish Foundation has agreed to donate 7 cents for every time this message is sent on. For those of you who send this along, i thank you so much, but those of you who don't send it what goes around comes around. Have a heart. Repost this ,help her
it kills me to read some of the nasty discussions on this video page re- race....are you not listening to the words of this beautiful song? Why would you blemish and obscure an artists attempt to convey pure and noble thoughts of Christ with your mutterings and rants?
DONT READ THIS. YOU WILL BE KISSED ON THE NEAREST POSSIBLE FRIDAY BY THE LOVE OF YOUR LIFE.TOMMOROW WILL BE THE BEST DAY OF YOUR LIFE. NOW YOU'VE STARTED READING THIS. DON'T STOP. THIS IS SO FREAKY. 1. say your name ten times. 2. say your mom's name five times. ... 3. say your crushes three times 4. paste this to four other groups. If you do this, your crush will kiss you on the nearest Friday. But if you read this and do not paste this, then you will have very bad luck.
@Cheshu And also if you read a book, read the whole book. Otherwise you might interpret things incorrectly. If you don't agree is this english word complete: irpt?
@Cheshu "If the Government of the United States, in Congress assembled, had the right to pass an anti-polygamy bill, they had also the right to pass a law that slaves should not be abused as they have been; they had also a right to make a law that negroes should be used like humans beings, and not worse then dumb brutes. For their abuse of that race, the whites will be cursed, unless they repent." Journal of Discourses (10:110). This also did Brigham Young tell, why don you quote that?
@Cheshu1: This reflects Jesus and his father:>>Witches, kill them. Homosexuals, kill them.fortunetellers, kill them. those who don`t listen to priests, kill them. those hitting their dad, kill them. those who curse their parents, kill them, adulterers, kill them. fornicators, kill them. people who believe in other religions, kill them. non-believers,kill them. fals prohets ,kill them. blasphemers, kill them. those who work on the Sabbath, kill them. This is the word of god !!
I agree with okalldone1--let's not drive the spirit away. Don't be discouraged by the comments. There is one thing that nobody can argue with, and that's a testimony. I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and I know with a surety that Christ is my savior. Let's love one another as Jesus has loved us.
You see what you have done in your video is you have broken the second of the ten commandments. It says "You shall not make for yourself any graven image"- You can do that with your hands or with your mind! You have made up a god in your own image; Your god does not exist! It is a figment of your imagination! It has no power to change your wicked heart! You can name your god jesus but it's not the JESUS of the bible! This is Idolatry; The bible says; "No idolater will inherit the kingdom of GOD"
believe me guys we get new people every day , we all know they were not to o"good" people ,but the lord said I came to the ill and afflicted to cure them ,
not to the"wise people" so everybody is welcome to this wonderful church,
I'm new to the faith, but i have already experienced an entire churchful of people who would bring down God's church. Stay strong everyone, i'll be praying
@camwheat New? Oh sister. You need to jump ship! You don't know the mess you are getting into. They seem all nice on the outside, but they are corrupt and mean on the inside.
@SharonLeisha Hello my name is Jackie pepper Turner I live in the outskirts of Salt Lake City if you ever get to come to SlC look me up. and congratulations on your babtism!
God wants us to love each other in a perfect way, forgiving and loving each other as He would have us do. Arguing like this just causes sorrow, not love. We were asked to even love our enemies... please don't continue to drive the spirit away from this song.
Nothing is more precious to the Lord than each of us coming to know and understand him. There are realities to our being here - man cannot do this without woman - woman cannot do this without man. Man to man or woman to woman is the death of life. We male and female are commanded to multiply and replenish the earth. We're also commanded to marry and honor our spouse. I don't have the answers but I understand the rules.
@microbosswa Wow, If that's true, your Lord has some messed up priorities. I would think ensuring the happiness of his children would take priority over something so petty as 'coming to know and understand him'. Sounds a little self-absorbed, dontcha think? You probably don't do that much though...
I love being a member of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints. I know that Jesus Christ loves me for who am and he know who I am. He knows what and when I need help.
@thekazjana Yes and if we ask him he will help us though this hard ship and just know that he loves everyone even if they are having problems also that he always is watching over u!!!!!! :) Got to love him!!!!!!! :) <3 <3
Es una gran canción... yo se que Dios nos ama... es díficil comprender muchas veces lo que nos pasa...pero... el sabe y todo es por amor o para protegernos...
Es una gran canción... yo se que Dios nos ama... es díficil comprender muchas veces lo que nos pasa...pero... el sabe y todo es por amor o para protegernos...
The Book of Mormon, or any Holy word of God ever needs to be PROVEN, it just takes a little faith and belief. We're taught to believe in the truth of what we believe. When you feel that, it's hard to have an kind of doubts. Faith isn't a perfect knowledge.
As a Christian, I have some major issues with Mormon teachings. The B of M for instance; none of it can be proven, and so much can be falsified.
My primary issue is with theology. The biggest being the concept of many Gods, that we all become Gods, that God was once a man, and Jesus is a separate god from the Father. Doesn't the Bible clearly state that "Lord is God, and that there is none else"?
Yeah Lord is God, but the Bible also states that God created the humans in an image of himself - it's even in the very beginning of the Bible. Think a little about that and maybe you will understand the teachings better. There is noone that can be exactly like God but our point is to try to be as similar as possible, why else would need to follow his rules, if not living in his house?
@JamesStomberg I agree. God did create us in His image; that's why we feel love, emotions, moral laws, etc., etc. But Jesus died for our sins because we are not perfect beings - we're all sinners. Anyone who claims differently is being prideful or lying. We are on (more or less) the same page regarding this.
..But that is something totally separate from claiming that we can eventually become gods. What about Isaiah 43:10,11: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
@teahouse100 Well, what are we then if we keep all of God's commandments? What are we if we live with God in heaven? What are we when we gain eternal life? God is eternal and everlasting, from eternity to eternity so what are we when we get eternal everlasting life if we keep God's commandments?
But I see your point and I agree, there will be no one like God, but there will be humans created in his image, who will choose to be as similar as possible, to be able to judge between good and bad etc
@JamesStomberg Last thing. Eternal life doesn't necessitate infinite wisdom, or omnipresence. True, we all have souls. But God is more than a perfect soul is He not? He created the heavens and earth, he can die for our sins, perform miracles, etc.
Now, you can always try and find other ways around this, but if you are going to call yourself Christian you should stick to what the Bible states; and it makes this point very clear because it is important: that there is only one true God.
@teahouse100 We stick to what the Bible says and we also have the Book of Mormon as a witness of the Gospel and Christs teachings, that have never been a problem for Christs church. But as I said there is no point of discuss this because a strong faith comes from a testimony that you have yourself worked for, read and pray and you will know the truth trough the power of the holy ghost. I also have a tip for you, read in the Book of Mormon Moroni chapter 10 and try what is suggested.
@JamesStomberg Don't mean to offend. But the BoM is riddled with contradictions (I won't list them). I've read parts of the BoM and my girlfriend was raised Mormon. She can't reconcile truth claims in BoM with the evidence. Although Moroni says some heartfelt things, I don't believe it because I cannot accept the premise of Moroni's existence. This is since I don't accept Joe Smith's proclamation as true; sorry, but both his claims and character fail to provide good reason to make it believable.
@teahouse100 The BoM does not tell you to claim proofs from Joseph Smith, the BoM and the Bible tells you to listen and be guided by the holy ghost. I don't want to offend either, but your statements tells me that you do not try what it says, maybe I have wrong maybe I have right. And if you have found the right path of truth and are happy, then keep walking the path, I just tried to show you a place to start if you truly want to examine the "LDS-religion".
@JamesStomberg But belief is one part faith, one part rational. Faith requires reasons - blind faith does not. The Holy Spirit is guided by more than just our feelings and it needs to be; otherwise it can be misguided. God gave us the ability to reason and to make sense of the world. I feel in my heart that the Mormon foundations are problematic because reasons inform me so. How could something as important as the BoM be true if it is prompted with feet of clay, that can so easily be broken.
@teahouse100 As much as it can be disproven it can also be proven. And what do you refer to when you are trying prove and disprove something like this, what are the sources? Are they valid? What is a valid source? What are the US doing in Afghanistan, what are they doing in Iraq? Fighting terrorism? When you believe, do not let reason take over to much, because by doing that you will build your faith on a beach of sand, and not on a rock as Jesus told.
@JamesStomberg As much as it is a lie, it is truth. Are you freaking retarded? A lie is a lie. You build your faith on sand by believing in a book written by a man who's prophecies have NEVER came true, a man who LIED about 'translating' the Book of Abraham, and a man who was CONVICTED of FRAUD.
And you think you have any support claiming your faith is built on a rock? Psha. What an idiot you are.
@windigo77 So you claim by your statements calling me an idiot, that I am stupid, you claim that you know more then I do? Then I will have to ask you, do you live in the real world?
@JamesStomberg "As much as it can be disproven it can also be proven." - No! Something that has been DISPROVEN has been DISPROVEN. That's the end of it! You are building your faith on the sandiest beach in town! A polygamist man, who wrote a book that is so full of bullcrap that if you dropped it, it would splatter! Talk about a beach!
@teahouse100 I have a question for you. If faith is a good thing, then what is stopping a person WITH faith from believing every religion in the entire world? Faith is irrational belief in irrational things. If God wants me to be irrational in order to save myself from a man who sacrificed himself.. to himself, to appease himself, then you are long gone on the crazy train. Faith is NOT a virtue, it is NOT a positive thing to believe things without evidence, or in spite of it. That is INSANITY.
@windigo77 Faith in God is a first step. Religion, as I see it, requires more examination. God wouldn't want you to be irrational, but we both agree on peoples' innate sense of Moral Law don't we? The rationality of the universe? What about our inclination to believe in God? Nearly every culture in history has believed in a God and new studies are showing we are born with an inclination to believe in God; and is especially strong in children with no concept of religion. These are a few reasons.
@teahouse100 Yes, morals evolved because humans that engaged in behavior that was detrimental to society were selected against by evolution. The inclination to believe in God is a misassociation of social behavior to the environment, it's a psychological phenomenon similar to schitzophrenia, but not as influential. Religious people are crazy, because they think the environment speaks english and has human emotions, which I think we agree is simply silly. Prayer has been proven to not work.
@windigo77 I don't think you can argue that morals are evolutionary. Evolution contains a moral dilemma because morals stand in contrast to the "selfish gene"; even Dawkins concedes this. That is, evolution is not a sociological issue - it is a biological one. I'm a practicing Christian and I am by no psychological standard "crazy".
Tell me, if you were to discover art or literature on another planet - would you assume this to be a random act of particle physics or made by some artist/creator?
@teahouse100 No, I highly doubt Dawkins concedes that. Morality is very obviously an evolved trait, as even dogs have morals - they have them because, as a social species (one that depends on each other for survival), treating others poorly will lead to being kicked out of the tribe, or lead the entire tribe to extinction, and selected against. It's very obviously an evolved trait.
No, but life isn't art/literature. it shows signs of being evolved, like the blind spot in the eye, & our tailbone
@windigo77 Is this what you attribute your morality to - mere survival? What about altruism or sacrificing one's life for another? How do you explain these types of actions with a purely mechanistic or evolutionary worldview. Again, evolution does not apply to tribalism - this is a social phenomena. Genetics are neither affected nor associated with groups; they are strictly limited to the individual.
@teahouse100 If you saw an ink splat on a book, would you assume the artist intended it to be there? Because that's essentially what your saying. Life has huge errors in it showing it not to be a work designed intelligently, but through incremental steps. You are warm blooded for instance - that's not necessarily good for us because we use LOTS of energy, merely surviving while a snake doesn't eat for months! Why? Because we evolved from mammals evolved to live in cold climates. No designer.
@windigo77 How can you err life. Are you referring to death, suffering, evil? And explain to me why is being warm blooded erroneous? Is it because it is not as efficient as a snake?
The mechanisms that work through DNA; the variation of animals, fauna and so on certainly seems like design to me. And Why not? Do you believe that were are able to sit here and discuss the nature of "God" because we are only coincidences of a universal accident?
@teahouse100 No. The blind spot in the eye is the best example - an intelligent being would make such a rudimentary mistake as plugging the optic nerve in on the wrong side. That's a definite error.
If you want to say they are designed, then sure you can say that - but you make the mistake when you call the designer 'intelligent', because it isn't. Evolution isn't intelligent, and the result of evolution isn't intelligent. It's trial and error, and scientists even know the mechanism.
@windigo77 Evolution is intelligent. Species that are ill equipped for certain environments die out and a stronger one will prevail. It's a system of trial and error, success and failure. Not all species succeed and not all humans do either. I'm not arguing that life isn't sometimes cruel; because it surely is. However, humanity has improved and advanced itself just as other species have through the evolutionary ladder. Both systems are continually perfecting themselves teleologically.
@teahouse100 You are playing 'God of the Gaps' - evolution shows that there is no creator to life, so now you are backtracking deeper into the gap. Now you accuse the mechanism as being designed. Could you at least concede that evolution is not intelligent before moving onto another topic? DNA molecules are all composites of naturally occurring elements. Please, concede your evolution argument before moving on.
@windigo77 I'm not playing God of the Gaps. My faith in God relies on my personal testimony and reading/studying scripture. God is the cause even when there is scientific explanation. Design is different from filling the gaps because the universe is intelligible. It is rational, otherwise nothing would make sense in the first place and we couldn't ever hold a coherent discussion on rules of physics, evolution, predictions, whatever. Evolution for me is a process put in place through God.
@teahouse100 so, now you think math is intelligent... you are very delusional. You don't need an intelligence to have order. You just need consistency, and consistency is what you would expect in a universe WITHOUT an intelligent creature modifying the laws of physics through magic/miracles/etc. If God existed, you would expect the laws to change as frequently as God would change intent, but it doesn't.
@windigo77 What is consistency though?! You cannot have consistency without some sort of rationality backing the universe. Einstein said that the only thing irrational about this universe is that it's rational; he couldn't conceive of an universe adhering any order of physical and mathematical laws, rules, theories without a creator to place them in motion. Consistency is something that follows a design, otherwise everything would be an unpredictable, random mess.
@teahouse100 Well, then Einstein didn't know very much about the nature of intelligence, did he? As I showed you in a previous comment, a key identifier of "intelligence" is "change" - no change, no intelligence. A person who just lays on the ground all day, or behaves the same way all the time isn't intelligent. Consistency is not something that follows design.
You said christians don't believe in magic and that miracles are different. I'll tell you now, they are the same thing.
@teahouse100 What it eventually comes down to is this. As we break things down in this universe, we see what they are made of everything gets simpler. intelligence is complex and i imagine super-intelligence to be more complex, molecules are simple, atoms are simpler, and so forth... so we have 10,9,8,7,6,5,3,2,1... and the number that follows isn't God/infinity, it is zero. We are complexity rising out of non-complexity, not complexity rising from the infinitely complex.
@teahouse100 none of that is relevant either, because the only thing that needs to be discussed is the validity or invalidity of the bible, and supernatural claims. If you call love god, then I call you silly, because love is love, no need to call it anything other than what it is. God is a word that is no different than the greeks who thought Athena would bless them - an absurd notion, and in this century, it's time we shed ourselves of this childishness.
@windigo77 "Magic" (tricks, spells, hexes, whatever you want to name it) is conjured by humans with supernatural powers. Miracles come from God. Big difference.
@teahouse100 No big difference. You want to personify God, meaning he has the traits of man. You can't in the same breath then say that God isn't a person, and when he does magic, it's not 'magic'. The actions of God in the Bible as well appear as simple magic tricks, such as Jesus walking on water, etc. These aren't amazing miraculous things, as I've seen Penn and Teller do equivalent tricks and call them 'magic'.
@windigo77 A difference b/w the Christian God and Athena is that the coming of Jesus was prophesied hundreds of times, over thousands of years before His birth. A second difference is that Athena did not have historical records and verifiable facts surrounding her life like Jesus. Thirdly, provide evidence of Athena's (or any historical god's) existence or manifestation, and give evidence of her actually doing what greek mythology claims.
@teahouse100 And you don't think Athena was prophesied about all the time? The oracle of delphi alone made hundreds of prophecies about the coming and goings of the greek gods. You are grossly misinformed. Do you believe, with all these prophecies/sightings/testimonies that Athena actually ever existed? Greek mythology was around for a thousand years too. No difference
@windigo77 A final difference: I suppose you can dispute why anyone would believe in a God that sacrificed himself for our benefit.. and ask why would God preach about being humble, meek, caring for prostitutes, the poor and "unclean", loving your enemies, compassion and forgiveness, and so forth (God is Love [John 4:8] doesn't exactly match the "profile" of the many gods throughout history.. or even depictions of God from the Old Testament).
@teahouse100 Uh, actually they do. God is love - sounds a lot like the greek god of love.... duh. Why would God preach those things? I dunno, because ALL cultures teach those things. Why? Because they are necessary for a society to survive. Jesus comes and points out the obvious, and you treat it like it's some kind of miraculous thing... it's not.
@windigo77 Other cultures do not teach this. These are Christian values that have been taken from scripture and incorporated into western culture. It's easy for secularists today to say "do away with Christianity, we don't need it to be good". But we forget where our modern concepts of morality first came from. Please look up the origins of charity, or mercy. Christian moral codes have been written into nearly every western constitution, and is inherent in our social norms, laws, and identity.
@windigo77 People can be good without knowing these teachings; but again, this plays into Moral Law. Do you believe the only reason we behave is for the well-being of society? I think we deserve more credit than that. And I'm sure you feel rattled when you witness injustice, inequality and suffering to other humans, not a social system. If it is all just a social contract, how do we judge Nazi Germany's actions? What sort of a contract is it when an entire society let its morals relapse..
@windigo77 Jesus was radical for his context (or any context). But looking back, his actions were so obviously right that even atheists cannot discredit it (although they dispute Jesus is God). Early Christians were persecuted since their belief in God, Jesus Christ, did not conform to traditional ideas of God. God created us in His image; like Jesus Christ. And It may be hard to understand, but this makes so much sense to me. That God's grace can manifest in all.
@teahouse100 No he wasn't radical. Not at all. Just because the old testament makes the world seem like it used to be a horrible awful place, that doesn't mean his teachings were radical.. Do you think that, while all that war was going on in the middle east that it wasn't EXAGGERATED like all things are? You get 10,000 years and condense it into a few pages, and only point out the big events - sure it's going to sound worse than it really was.
@windigo77 Jesus wasn't radical? So getting killed willingly was the norm? This is a period where it was criminal to befriend, or to be seen with the poor, gentiles, prostitutes, the "unclean", etc. Jesus through his teachings and how he lived demonstrated perfect forgiveness, divine mercy, and grace; that we are all unique, yet equal under God. You may call this exaggerated altruism, but the Bible provides different records of Christ's life showing that this happened. It's also part faith.
@teahouse100 I am an atheist that is discrediting it. Jesus did nothing but point out the obvious. Ironically Jesus himself disproved the concept of 'Objective Morality', a concept that your ENTIRE religion depends on when he was quoted saying "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" - Wow, so Jesus just said that Morality is subjective and NOT deturmined by an objective God. Funny!
@windigo77 Jesus did not claim morality was subjective. I don't think you are entirely convinced of this either. Unlike what many so-called Christians believe today, Christ's teachings were pretty strict; it was not just merely a matter of acting "good". There is no way persons profiteering from religion are gaining any favour from God. And if you read the mortal sins you will realize that Christ's account of morality is not relative.
@teahouse100 If the absurdity of your religious beliefs make sense to you. I don't know if I could feel more sorry for you. I UNDERSTAND your religious beliefs. They are just stupid. I understand why they 'make so much sense to you', but that doesn't mean they are true. The problem is between your ears.
@windigo77 Again, the Christian God is a personal God (not some deity or God of the Gaps). I don't expect people to believe in Christianity because of bare science. Especially in this age of ramped skepticism, where things not quantifiable by materialism or positivism have no value. Secular cynicism is an overused sword that is constantly used to attack anyone's beliefs that don't fit the rubric of science. I love science, but I'm tired of people trying to make me ashamed for being Christian
@windigo77 Would you claim that you understand what it is to be Jewish too? Probably not, because it's political; but it's easy to assert this about Christians. There is a divisive and militant backlash against Christians today. Perhaps its because Christians are still mainstream and aggressive secularists still see Christians as the biggest threat. Also because atheists like Bill Mahr and Dawkins are polarizing sectarian lines as progressive Christians are grouped with the fundamentalists..
@windigo77 Where does simplicity come from, 0? Or does it simply derive itself from nothing. Super complexity, rising from complexity, rising from non-complexity implies that there is a logic behind it, no? Does this logic create itself, where does it come from; otherwise, why isn't complexity static? And how come this super-complexity developed into rational intelligence that enables us to comprehend a (coincidentally) rational universe? Where does our "irrational" belief in God fit into this?
@teahouse100 well, what is the 'simplest' thing you can think of... the answer should be 'nothing' - so yes. I believe through the recent discovery of 'virtual particles' that we have in fact proven that something can come out of nothing, in fact nothing is constantly producing 'something', because existence itself is a wave constantly switching back and forth between existence and non-existence, and matter is when two of these waves are inverse of each other. -none of this matters to my atheism
@windigo77 I'm not really familiar with virtual particles. Do they really come from nothing or do they come from energy? Quantum energy abides by the laws of physics and energy conservation so it's not caused by nothing. I think we are similar because we both have faith. You have faith in a vacuous and idle-nothingness creating our complex universe including laws, constants, life, rationality, morality, love, and faith - and I have faith that God did this :)
@teahouse100 Uh no. I don't have faith in that. I don't believe that is the answer necessarily either. It's just a proposal, I don't particularly have an opinion either direction. The problem is that you DO. You believe God did it all, and that as such he deserves to be worshipped and your children indoctrinated and sex shamed and such because of it. Utter ridiculousness. The arrogance you exhibit is amazing.
@windigo77 What is wrong with teaching children about Christianity? How is this different from "indoctrinating" them with atheism. Christians tend to live pretty fulfilling lives. They have great work ethics, they're outgoing, compassionate, charitable - they tend to avert over-drinking, hedonism, sexual promiscuity, and are taught good morals all around. Whether children want to listen to these teachings, or not, is up to them. Thank you for the discussion :)
@teahouse100 I don't quite understand how religious people can't figure out the difference between 'teaching' and 'indoctrinating'. The difference is quite large. When you teach somebody something, you explain how it works - when you indoctrinate you engage in things such as 'if you don't believe you will burn in hell', and/or use peer pressure and give 'special treatment' to those who obey. One is education, the other is coercive.
@teahouse100 Look, I'll even give you the definition: "Teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically" - do you understand the difference yet?
@teahouse100 I also want to point out that you are attempting to use questions as if they were an argument. questions are not arguments. You don't win a debate by asking questions and when nobody answers them declare victory. That's not how it works, and if you think that is how it works, you are wrong.
@windigo77 Lol. I'm not trying to win a debate here, I'm merely defending my position. And sorry if I sound condescending, but I am more interested in finding the truth instead of declaring "victory". Debates tend to reinforce bigotry and self-image rather than achieving understanding between parties. Discussion is far more valuable, and less polarizing.
@windigo77 Christians don't believe in magic. Miracles are different. Quantum physics claims that everything is based on probabilities. By definition, the odds of a miracle are very slim. I'm not a huge miracle believer - but if there was one miracle, it so difficult to believe that Christ lived, died on the Cross, and was resurrected? And If there is an omnipotent God, I'm sure he would reserve the power to do this.
@teahouse100 Besides, you need not move any further than evolution to disprove the biblical God, and I don't define God as being anything more then that. So if you are arguing the mechanism of evolution as being created by your deity, then you are arguing for a straw man. I do not hold a position that the DNA molecule wasn't designed, I hold that the God as described by the bible as the creator of life on earth with Adam and Eve as the first man and woman to be false. I'm an Atheist.
@windigo77 You are attacking me from all different fronts here? haha.
God in the Bible does exist. Certainly. If you skim the Bible like many do today, and find superficial faults, contradictions, so on, you are not reading it for what it is. It is not a book written by God, it was written by various authors at various times; it includes historical records as well as allegories, cultural practices, rites and so on. The Old Testament is very different from the New Testament.
@teahouse100 Various authors at different times? Oh yeah, and talking about different gods (FYI Abraham was a polytheist/pegan)- don't forget THAT part. Please, if you want to try and convince Atheists and/or understand their position, check out the video "History of God" here on youtube by a user named Evid3nc3.
@windigo77 Well, someone didn't sit down and say "Ok. I think I am going to write a Bible". The books in the New Testament are separate records about the life of Christ. The Old Testament served a slightly different purpose by combining theology, culture norms, and Hebrew Law. You can say the Old Testament refers to stoning women, homosexuals, etc., but you have to realize they didn't have a women's rights movement back then - nor did they have gay rights. Its more complex than that.
@teahouse100 You are missing a BIG point. In the bible GOD commands those immoral punishments. Not man. Are you admitting that when the old testament prophers wrote that God commanded it that they were lying?
@windigo77 I was an agnostic. But I can't claim (apart from my Christian faith) any absolute truth in this word; everything becomes relativistic after a while. I thought about this and have conceded that the more we know - the more we're aware we don't know. (As cliche as this is) The only real certainty is death. More to the point, I don't know if it is really worth arguing because you have your world view and I have mine; I doubt we will sway each other. All I can say is Christ for me is true.
@windigo77 And the only way to understand Christianity is if you make a genuine attempt to live it. I don't expect people to flock to Christianity because of the "science" behind it. Especially in this age of ramped skepticism, where anything not quantifiable by materialism or positivism has no value. The Bible isn't a science text, nor was it intended to be; whether the earth was created in 6 days or is a metaphor for 6 billion years is irrelevant; the point is that God made it.
@teahouse100 What fronts? What attacks? We were talking about evolution, you lose so you start talking about DNA, playing God of the Gaps. Your the only one changing the 'front'.
@teahouse100 our spinal columns are VERY poorly designed for walking upright - that is why so many people end up with back problems. A human being could EASILY design a better spine - but God can't? A human could EASILY design a better eye - so why didn't God? Basically, if you think life is designed - then the designer would have to be either an incredibly poor engineer, or - like evolution says - built up in as a series of advantageous traits over time to different environments.
@windigo77 Hmm, but we are all different. If Science wants to make us all into perfected homo-sapiens, with perfect spines, perfect health, perfect looks then where is the challenge in life? Plus, isn't this what Nazi scientists tried to do with eugenics?
God as an incredibly poor engineer? People still cannot even comprehend the complexity of the DNA alphabet.. Let alone the preciseness and fine tuning of the universe to meet "our" conditions for life.
@teahouse100 Yeah, and your arguing DNA instead of the god as described by the bible, and as such you have lost the argument. The god of the bible doesn't exist.
@teahouse100 Life is fine tuned for the environment, not the other way around. The God of the bible DOESN'T actually exist. If you DON'T read it with it's contradictions and everything intact then you are being dishonest when you claim that the God of the bible IS true.
Oh well, this argument is fruitless - if you want to be a crazy religious nut job have at it, but like I said, don't blame the guy who doesn't snap his fingers at the birds.
I'm not LDS either. But maybe you should take your own advice about snapping your fingers. After all, you are the one on a religious blog, blogging against other people's beliefs, and pinning religious people as psychologically indisposed. As far as I know, atheists still make up a small minority and non-religious doesn't imply atheism. Can I ask you, do you believe most people are "nut jobs" with the exception of a small percentage of atheists?
@teahouse100 In what way should I take my own advise about snapping fingers? 20% isn't that small, especially considering the fact that 90% of the intellectual elite are Atheists. We aren't exactly in a powerless position... Actually it does, the word 'A(non)-theist(believer in God) means non-believer. I'm not saying I KNOW there is no God, simply 'among the things I believe exist, God is not among them'. But the biblical God is self contradictory, and thus can be proven to not exist.
@windigo77 Why do you keep equating intellectual elite with having a better understanding of God, and particularly a personal God. This is an elitist view, and the fact that someone is powerful, rich, intelligent holds not gravity in this discussion. If you want to disbelieve in an immaterial God based on popular authorities such as Dawkins that's fine; but I have little respect for someone who discredits God as intellectual baggage. God by definition cannot be intellectualized.
I think this is a very nice song and i hope it inspires people to come to the Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints (:
brunoeric100 15 minutes ago
You know, there are many different religions out there, and I'm going to respect every single one of them, but I think everyone needs to give us respect to. Think to yourself, how much do you honestly know about this church? Not everything you hear is true. And you also don't know everything that maybe you should. Dint judge before you know all the facts is all I'm saying.
supergillpill 9 hours ago
When I'm home alone I like to listen to this song, lay on the floor, and pretend I'm a carrot.
wry2crazy 2 weeks ago
Motivational song to do what's right.. This song helps me out :)
gskaterbro31 1 month ago
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Jan1541 1 month ago
I like it
otastudioproductions 1 month ago
I love this
stonejones1 1 month ago
The Chrch is true!
S7556307 1 month ago
beautiful <3
carolinAndreasc 1 month ago
This is the most beautiful song I have ever heard. I keep listing to it over and over. It makes me cry, it makes me feel close to Jesus and helps me to start forgiving myself.
TheJensarah 1 month ago
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Hi,my name is Amy Bruce. i am 7 years old ,and i have severe lung cancer. I also have a large tumor in my brain from repeted beatings. Doctors say i will die soon if this isin't fixed and my family can't pay the bills. The Make A Wish Foundation has agreed to donate 7 cents for every time this message is sent on. For those of you who send this along, i thank you so much, but those of you who don't send it what goes around comes around. Have a heart. Repost this ,help her
jukia100 1 month ago
I love this song. Thank you so much for sharing the love of Heavenly Father.
ambjansam 2 months ago
Hes your brother davies he will never leave you promptly
Newstartfordave28 2 months ago
Whenever I listen to this song, I know that He loves.
hopeforeverx3 2 months ago
it kills me to read some of the nasty discussions on this video page re- race....are you not listening to the words of this beautiful song? Why would you blemish and obscure an artists attempt to convey pure and noble thoughts of Christ with your mutterings and rants?
mikeodendahl 2 months ago
@mikeodendahl What about beautiful thoughts and music in the name of Zeus or Hercules?
califtom 1 month ago
Does anyone know where I can get the lyircs?
LingHershey04 2 months ago
@LingHershey04 kzion.com
TheOtherGirl80 2 months ago
luv it XD.....
MsJsexy101 2 months ago in playlist More videos from fernandodelamora
LUv this song :)
1CookieMunster1 3 months ago
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Heil Hitler!
Sterilize the Jews for peace
Seig Heil!!!
63SemperFi 3 months ago
@fernandodelamora where can we downloa or buy this?
JosephDanielPugh 3 months ago
i like this song
MrEmanuelguerrero100 3 months ago
I love this video
captainbob11 3 months ago in playlist Liked
He's my life
nonnah9 3 months ago
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DONT READ THIS. YOU WILL BE KISSED ON THE NEAREST POSSIBLE FRIDAY BY THE LOVE OF YOUR LIFE.TOMMOROW WILL BE THE BEST DAY OF YOUR LIFE. NOW YOU'VE STARTED READING THIS. DON'T STOP. THIS IS SO FREAKY. 1. say your name ten times. 2. say your mom's name five times. ... 3. say your crushes three times 4. paste this to four other groups. If you do this, your crush will kiss you on the nearest Friday. But if you read this and do not paste this, then you will have very bad luck.
WASwashere4242 4 months ago
i am no longer a member (i don't believe in god) but i still enjoy this music. peace
iPriestHolmes 4 months ago
@iPriestHolmes peace. and greetings from Germany.
8gstar 2 months ago
Look at the youtube video of "Jesus Christ in Chile (Signs before the Second Coming)"
superleonidas 4 months ago
Hi, may I play your songs on the bus when we go to temple?
toliu3 4 months ago in playlist LDS Music 2
@Cheshu And also if you read a book, read the whole book. Otherwise you might interpret things incorrectly. If you don't agree is this english word complete: irpt?
JamesStomberg 4 months ago
@Cheshu "If the Government of the United States, in Congress assembled, had the right to pass an anti-polygamy bill, they had also the right to pass a law that slaves should not be abused as they have been; they had also a right to make a law that negroes should be used like humans beings, and not worse then dumb brutes. For their abuse of that race, the whites will be cursed, unless they repent." Journal of Discourses (10:110). This also did Brigham Young tell, why don you quote that?
JamesStomberg 4 months ago
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@Cheshu1: This reflects Jesus and his father:>>Witches, kill them. Homosexuals, kill them.fortunetellers, kill them. those who don`t listen to priests, kill them. those hitting their dad, kill them. those who curse their parents, kill them, adulterers, kill them. fornicators, kill them. people who believe in other religions, kill them. non-believers,kill them. fals prohets ,kill them. blasphemers, kill them. those who work on the Sabbath, kill them. This is the word of god !!
ndzoko 4 months ago
you you got it!
arcvar59 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 did you read my answer?
arcvar59 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 free agency ,not biblical, not man's opinion's ,but my own testimony ,need more , I can ...
arcvar59 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 spiritual death , sir!
arcvar59 4 months ago
I agree with okalldone1--let's not drive the spirit away. Don't be discouraged by the comments. There is one thing that nobody can argue with, and that's a testimony. I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and I know with a surety that Christ is my savior. Let's love one another as Jesus has loved us.
lorellio2 4 months ago
You see what you have done in your video is you have broken the second of the ten commandments. It says "You shall not make for yourself any graven image"- You can do that with your hands or with your mind! You have made up a god in your own image; Your god does not exist! It is a figment of your imagination! It has no power to change your wicked heart! You can name your god jesus but it's not the JESUS of the bible! This is Idolatry; The bible says; "No idolater will inherit the kingdom of GOD"
EXALTEDDIRT 4 months ago
belissima musica.... jesus o quanto te amo..... so tu és o perfeito amor!!!
uilsinho78 4 months ago
@Cheshu1 how acome , hevenly father answer me ,that joseph smith is his prophet now ,the one to restore
his gospel for the last time , explain that to me?
arcvar59 5 months ago
@Cheshu1 what about prophet saulo he use to kill people from the church ,he became one of the best prphets
ob the bible , and you stiil trust it ,why not prophet joseph smith?+who are we to judge ?.
arcvar59 5 months ago
I really like this video/song. : )
Makes me feel the spirit.
stonejones1 5 months ago
believe me guys we get new people every day , we all know they were not to o"good" people ,but the lord said I came to the ill and afflicted to cure them ,
not to the"wise people" so everybody is welcome to this wonderful church,
again no offense .
arcvar59 5 months ago
we all mormons know the truth tanks for your comments guys , by the way
we also know that ,greater knowledge,greater condemnation so we are in good
hands and I share my testimony to you in the name of jesus christ amen.
arcvar59 5 months ago
can you please ask god,what did he do to joseph smith , because you seem to be getting revelation too, from the wrong side of course . no ofense .
arcvar59 5 months ago
@Cheshu1 so you're the new prophet now ? are you restoring the gospel finaly?
arcvar59 5 months ago
very nice and inspiration song....
jollyeversweetyoung 5 months ago
I was Impressed this wonderful songs
flaminiano1 5 months ago
I'm new to the faith, but i have already experienced an entire churchful of people who would bring down God's church. Stay strong everyone, i'll be praying
camwheat 5 months ago in playlist LDS Music
@camwheat New? Oh sister. You need to jump ship! You don't know the mess you are getting into. They seem all nice on the outside, but they are corrupt and mean on the inside.
windigo77 5 months ago
I love this!
Is there a way of downloading this to mi iPod? Maybe through iTunes?
stonejones1 5 months ago
Anybody knows how to download this movie?
valdezmaria22 5 months ago
@valdezmaria22 You could try to contact the maker of this video and see if they'll give it to you. Stay strong :)
sensualfold 5 months ago
Great Song!
I just have became a LDS member in The Netherlands! :D
I really love this song!
SharonLeisha 5 months ago 37
@SharonLeisha Mooi:)
L3Lchaim 5 months ago
@SharonLeisha Congrats!....Hold strong Sharon, always remember if our church wasnt true satan wouldnt try so hard to bring it down!
sensualfold 5 months ago
@SharonLeisha Welcome my sister from Georgia, USA! Hugs!
betsybk56 4 months ago
@SharonLeisha Love from a Brazilian brother to you :)
pjmolive 2 months ago
@SharonLeisha I am in the process of becoming LDS.
13SuperKings 2 months ago
@SharonLeisha Hello my name is Jackie pepper Turner I live in the outskirts of Salt Lake City if you ever get to come to SlC look me up. and congratulations on your babtism!
JackiepepperTurner 1 month ago
God wants us to love each other in a perfect way, forgiving and loving each other as He would have us do. Arguing like this just causes sorrow, not love. We were asked to even love our enemies... please don't continue to drive the spirit away from this song.
okalldone1 5 months ago 15
@okalldone1 Are these the words of a loving, forgiving god? You cafeteria christians crack me up.
Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."
Exodus 21:17 "He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death."
Psalm 137:9 "Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."
califtom 1 month ago
Nothing is more precious to the Lord than each of us coming to know and understand him. There are realities to our being here - man cannot do this without woman - woman cannot do this without man. Man to man or woman to woman is the death of life. We male and female are commanded to multiply and replenish the earth. We're also commanded to marry and honor our spouse. I don't have the answers but I understand the rules.
microbosswa 6 months ago
@microbosswa Wow, If that's true, your Lord has some messed up priorities. I would think ensuring the happiness of his children would take priority over something so petty as 'coming to know and understand him'. Sounds a little self-absorbed, dontcha think? You probably don't do that much though...
windigo77 5 months ago
Awesome!!!!!!
jennicaroxy23 6 months ago
HAIL SATAN!!!!!!
Deflorate6 6 months ago
God will ,about the size of watermelons right on satans head- hail of fire, but you still have a chance .
ksvillani 6 months ago
@Deflorate6 just shut your mouth dude. it's not funny.
aaronjames05 6 months ago
great words and video....
susie284 6 months ago
@teahouse100! I love you the way you explain things and your understanding! Thanks so much for your testimony!!
rebeccaann9 6 months ago
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if you use that kind of lenguage that proves you are from the devil.or a false
profet.
arcvar59 6 months ago
if you use that kind of lenguage that proves you are from the devil.
arcvar59 6 months ago
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Zaxaritsaful 6 months ago
fuck god
renoeNVy123 6 months ago
@renoeNVy123 do you want people to love satan?
arcvar59 6 months ago
@arcvar59 fuck god and fuck satan
windigo77 6 months ago
666
renoeNVy123 6 months ago
I love being a member of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints. I know that Jesus Christ loves me for who am and he know who I am. He knows what and when I need help.
thekazjana 6 months ago
@thekazjana Yes and if we ask him he will help us though this hard ship and just know that he loves everyone even if they are having problems also that he always is watching over u!!!!!! :) Got to love him!!!!!!! :) <3 <3
thehurd16 6 months ago in playlist reflections
lyrics please!please!thank you so much:)
shenziemariespanish 6 months ago
I could never go through life without the Gospel. I can't wait to see him again.
musicaltheatre303 7 months ago
i love the church, it's the best and most beautiful thing! makes me so happy!
jennicaroxy23 7 months ago
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We are a fun LDS family...come check out our channel and subscribe...thanks.
angandnap 7 months ago
Es una gran canción... yo se que Dios nos ama... es díficil comprender muchas veces lo que nos pasa...pero... el sabe y todo es por amor o para protegernos...
sergiofrajo 7 months ago
Es una gran canción... yo se que Dios nos ama... es díficil comprender muchas veces lo que nos pasa...pero... el sabe y todo es por amor o para protegernos...
sergiofrajo 7 months ago
The Book of Mormon, or any Holy word of God ever needs to be PROVEN, it just takes a little faith and belief. We're taught to believe in the truth of what we believe. When you feel that, it's hard to have an kind of doubts. Faith isn't a perfect knowledge.
causingchaos666 7 months ago
As a Christian, I have some major issues with Mormon teachings. The B of M for instance; none of it can be proven, and so much can be falsified.
My primary issue is with theology. The biggest being the concept of many Gods, that we all become Gods, that God was once a man, and Jesus is a separate god from the Father. Doesn't the Bible clearly state that "Lord is God, and that there is none else"?
teahouse100 7 months ago
@teahouse100 I totally agree with @causingchaos666. If you can prove something you can also disprove it.
Yeah Lord is God, but the Bible also states that God created the humans in an image of himself - it's even in the very beginning of the Bible. Think a little about that and maybe you will understand the teachings better. There is noone that can be exactly like God but our point is to try to be as similar as possible, why else would need to follow his rules, if not living in his house?
JamesStomberg 7 months ago
@JamesStomberg I agree. God did create us in His image; that's why we feel love, emotions, moral laws, etc., etc. But Jesus died for our sins because we are not perfect beings - we're all sinners. Anyone who claims differently is being prideful or lying. We are on (more or less) the same page regarding this.
..But that is something totally separate from claiming that we can eventually become gods. What about Isaiah 43:10,11: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
teahouse100 7 months ago
@teahouse100 Well, what are we then if we keep all of God's commandments? What are we if we live with God in heaven? What are we when we gain eternal life? God is eternal and everlasting, from eternity to eternity so what are we when we get eternal everlasting life if we keep God's commandments?
But I see your point and I agree, there will be no one like God, but there will be humans created in his image, who will choose to be as similar as possible, to be able to judge between good and bad etc
JamesStomberg 7 months ago
@JamesStomberg Last thing. Eternal life doesn't necessitate infinite wisdom, or omnipresence. True, we all have souls. But God is more than a perfect soul is He not? He created the heavens and earth, he can die for our sins, perform miracles, etc.
Now, you can always try and find other ways around this, but if you are going to call yourself Christian you should stick to what the Bible states; and it makes this point very clear because it is important: that there is only one true God.
teahouse100 7 months ago
@teahouse100 We stick to what the Bible says and we also have the Book of Mormon as a witness of the Gospel and Christs teachings, that have never been a problem for Christs church. But as I said there is no point of discuss this because a strong faith comes from a testimony that you have yourself worked for, read and pray and you will know the truth trough the power of the holy ghost. I also have a tip for you, read in the Book of Mormon Moroni chapter 10 and try what is suggested.
JamesStomberg 7 months ago
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teahouse100 7 months ago
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teahouse100 7 months ago
@JamesStomberg Don't mean to offend. But the BoM is riddled with contradictions (I won't list them). I've read parts of the BoM and my girlfriend was raised Mormon. She can't reconcile truth claims in BoM with the evidence. Although Moroni says some heartfelt things, I don't believe it because I cannot accept the premise of Moroni's existence. This is since I don't accept Joe Smith's proclamation as true; sorry, but both his claims and character fail to provide good reason to make it believable.
teahouse100 7 months ago
@teahouse100 The BoM does not tell you to claim proofs from Joseph Smith, the BoM and the Bible tells you to listen and be guided by the holy ghost. I don't want to offend either, but your statements tells me that you do not try what it says, maybe I have wrong maybe I have right. And if you have found the right path of truth and are happy, then keep walking the path, I just tried to show you a place to start if you truly want to examine the "LDS-religion".
JamesStomberg 7 months ago
@JamesStomberg But belief is one part faith, one part rational. Faith requires reasons - blind faith does not. The Holy Spirit is guided by more than just our feelings and it needs to be; otherwise it can be misguided. God gave us the ability to reason and to make sense of the world. I feel in my heart that the Mormon foundations are problematic because reasons inform me so. How could something as important as the BoM be true if it is prompted with feet of clay, that can so easily be broken.
teahouse100 7 months ago
@teahouse100 As much as it can be disproven it can also be proven. And what do you refer to when you are trying prove and disprove something like this, what are the sources? Are they valid? What is a valid source? What are the US doing in Afghanistan, what are they doing in Iraq? Fighting terrorism? When you believe, do not let reason take over to much, because by doing that you will build your faith on a beach of sand, and not on a rock as Jesus told.
JamesStomberg 7 months ago
@JamesStomberg As much as it is a lie, it is truth. Are you freaking retarded? A lie is a lie. You build your faith on sand by believing in a book written by a man who's prophecies have NEVER came true, a man who LIED about 'translating' the Book of Abraham, and a man who was CONVICTED of FRAUD.
And you think you have any support claiming your faith is built on a rock? Psha. What an idiot you are.
windigo77 7 months ago
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@windigo77 So you claim by your statements calling me an idiot, that I am stupid, you claim that you know more then I do? Then I will have to ask you, do you live in the real world?
JamesStomberg 7 months ago
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@JamesStomberg "As much as it can be disproven it can also be proven." - No! Something that has been DISPROVEN has been DISPROVEN. That's the end of it! You are building your faith on the sandiest beach in town! A polygamist man, who wrote a book that is so full of bullcrap that if you dropped it, it would splatter! Talk about a beach!
windigo77 7 months ago
@teahouse100 I have a question for you. If faith is a good thing, then what is stopping a person WITH faith from believing every religion in the entire world? Faith is irrational belief in irrational things. If God wants me to be irrational in order to save myself from a man who sacrificed himself.. to himself, to appease himself, then you are long gone on the crazy train. Faith is NOT a virtue, it is NOT a positive thing to believe things without evidence, or in spite of it. That is INSANITY.
windigo77 7 months ago
@windigo77 Faith in God is a first step. Religion, as I see it, requires more examination. God wouldn't want you to be irrational, but we both agree on peoples' innate sense of Moral Law don't we? The rationality of the universe? What about our inclination to believe in God? Nearly every culture in history has believed in a God and new studies are showing we are born with an inclination to believe in God; and is especially strong in children with no concept of religion. These are a few reasons.
teahouse100 6 months ago
@teahouse100 Yes, morals evolved because humans that engaged in behavior that was detrimental to society were selected against by evolution. The inclination to believe in God is a misassociation of social behavior to the environment, it's a psychological phenomenon similar to schitzophrenia, but not as influential. Religious people are crazy, because they think the environment speaks english and has human emotions, which I think we agree is simply silly. Prayer has been proven to not work.
windigo77 6 months ago in playlist LDS Music
@windigo77 I don't think you can argue that morals are evolutionary. Evolution contains a moral dilemma because morals stand in contrast to the "selfish gene"; even Dawkins concedes this. That is, evolution is not a sociological issue - it is a biological one. I'm a practicing Christian and I am by no psychological standard "crazy".
Tell me, if you were to discover art or literature on another planet - would you assume this to be a random act of particle physics or made by some artist/creator?
teahouse100 6 months ago
@teahouse100 No, I highly doubt Dawkins concedes that. Morality is very obviously an evolved trait, as even dogs have morals - they have them because, as a social species (one that depends on each other for survival), treating others poorly will lead to being kicked out of the tribe, or lead the entire tribe to extinction, and selected against. It's very obviously an evolved trait.
No, but life isn't art/literature. it shows signs of being evolved, like the blind spot in the eye, & our tailbone
windigo77 6 months ago
@windigo77 Is this what you attribute your morality to - mere survival? What about altruism or sacrificing one's life for another? How do you explain these types of actions with a purely mechanistic or evolutionary worldview. Again, evolution does not apply to tribalism - this is a social phenomena. Genetics are neither affected nor associated with groups; they are strictly limited to the individual.
teahouse100 6 months ago
@teahouse100 If you saw an ink splat on a book, would you assume the artist intended it to be there? Because that's essentially what your saying. Life has huge errors in it showing it not to be a work designed intelligently, but through incremental steps. You are warm blooded for instance - that's not necessarily good for us because we use LOTS of energy, merely surviving while a snake doesn't eat for months! Why? Because we evolved from mammals evolved to live in cold climates. No designer.
windigo77 6 months ago
@windigo77 How can you err life. Are you referring to death, suffering, evil? And explain to me why is being warm blooded erroneous? Is it because it is not as efficient as a snake?
The mechanisms that work through DNA; the variation of animals, fauna and so on certainly seems like design to me. And Why not? Do you believe that were are able to sit here and discuss the nature of "God" because we are only coincidences of a universal accident?
teahouse100 6 months ago
@teahouse100 No. The blind spot in the eye is the best example - an intelligent being would make such a rudimentary mistake as plugging the optic nerve in on the wrong side. That's a definite error.
If you want to say they are designed, then sure you can say that - but you make the mistake when you call the designer 'intelligent', because it isn't. Evolution isn't intelligent, and the result of evolution isn't intelligent. It's trial and error, and scientists even know the mechanism.
windigo77 6 months ago
@windigo77 Evolution is intelligent. Species that are ill equipped for certain environments die out and a stronger one will prevail. It's a system of trial and error, success and failure. Not all species succeed and not all humans do either. I'm not arguing that life isn't sometimes cruel; because it surely is. However, humanity has improved and advanced itself just as other species have through the evolutionary ladder. Both systems are continually perfecting themselves teleologically.
teahouse100 6 months ago
@teahouse100 You are playing 'God of the Gaps' - evolution shows that there is no creator to life, so now you are backtracking deeper into the gap. Now you accuse the mechanism as being designed. Could you at least concede that evolution is not intelligent before moving onto another topic? DNA molecules are all composites of naturally occurring elements. Please, concede your evolution argument before moving on.
windigo77 6 months ago
@windigo77 I'm not playing God of the Gaps. My faith in God relies on my personal testimony and reading/studying scripture. God is the cause even when there is scientific explanation. Design is different from filling the gaps because the universe is intelligible. It is rational, otherwise nothing would make sense in the first place and we couldn't ever hold a coherent discussion on rules of physics, evolution, predictions, whatever. Evolution for me is a process put in place through God.
teahouse100 6 months ago
@teahouse100 so, now you think math is intelligent... you are very delusional. You don't need an intelligence to have order. You just need consistency, and consistency is what you would expect in a universe WITHOUT an intelligent creature modifying the laws of physics through magic/miracles/etc. If God existed, you would expect the laws to change as frequently as God would change intent, but it doesn't.
windigo77 6 months ago
@windigo77 What is consistency though?! You cannot have consistency without some sort of rationality backing the universe. Einstein said that the only thing irrational about this universe is that it's rational; he couldn't conceive of an universe adhering any order of physical and mathematical laws, rules, theories without a creator to place them in motion. Consistency is something that follows a design, otherwise everything would be an unpredictable, random mess.
teahouse100 6 months ago
@teahouse100 Well, then Einstein didn't know very much about the nature of intelligence, did he? As I showed you in a previous comment, a key identifier of "intelligence" is "change" - no change, no intelligence. A person who just lays on the ground all day, or behaves the same way all the time isn't intelligent. Consistency is not something that follows design.
You said christians don't believe in magic and that miracles are different. I'll tell you now, they are the same thing.
windigo77 6 months ago
@teahouse100 What it eventually comes down to is this. As we break things down in this universe, we see what they are made of everything gets simpler. intelligence is complex and i imagine super-intelligence to be more complex, molecules are simple, atoms are simpler, and so forth... so we have 10,9,8,7,6,5,3,2,1... and the number that follows isn't God/infinity, it is zero. We are complexity rising out of non-complexity, not complexity rising from the infinitely complex.
windigo77 6 months ago
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teahouse100 6 months ago
@teahouse100 none of that is relevant either, because the only thing that needs to be discussed is the validity or invalidity of the bible, and supernatural claims. If you call love god, then I call you silly, because love is love, no need to call it anything other than what it is. God is a word that is no different than the greeks who thought Athena would bless them - an absurd notion, and in this century, it's time we shed ourselves of this childishness.
windigo77 6 months ago
@windigo77 "Magic" (tricks, spells, hexes, whatever you want to name it) is conjured by humans with supernatural powers. Miracles come from God. Big difference.
teahouse100 6 months ago
@teahouse100 No big difference. You want to personify God, meaning he has the traits of man. You can't in the same breath then say that God isn't a person, and when he does magic, it's not 'magic'. The actions of God in the Bible as well appear as simple magic tricks, such as Jesus walking on water, etc. These aren't amazing miraculous things, as I've seen Penn and Teller do equivalent tricks and call them 'magic'.
windigo77 6 months ago
@windigo77 A difference b/w the Christian God and Athena is that the coming of Jesus was prophesied hundreds of times, over thousands of years before His birth. A second difference is that Athena did not have historical records and verifiable facts surrounding her life like Jesus. Thirdly, provide evidence of Athena's (or any historical god's) existence or manifestation, and give evidence of her actually doing what greek mythology claims.
teahouse100 6 months ago
@teahouse100 And you don't think Athena was prophesied about all the time? The oracle of delphi alone made hundreds of prophecies about the coming and goings of the greek gods. You are grossly misinformed. Do you believe, with all these prophecies/sightings/testimonies that Athena actually ever existed? Greek mythology was around for a thousand years too. No difference
windigo77 6 months ago
@windigo77 A final difference: I suppose you can dispute why anyone would believe in a God that sacrificed himself for our benefit.. and ask why would God preach about being humble, meek, caring for prostitutes, the poor and "unclean", loving your enemies, compassion and forgiveness, and so forth (God is Love [John 4:8] doesn't exactly match the "profile" of the many gods throughout history.. or even depictions of God from the Old Testament).
teahouse100 6 months ago
@teahouse100 Uh, actually they do. God is love - sounds a lot like the greek god of love.... duh. Why would God preach those things? I dunno, because ALL cultures teach those things. Why? Because they are necessary for a society to survive. Jesus comes and points out the obvious, and you treat it like it's some kind of miraculous thing... it's not.
windigo77 6 months ago
@windigo77 Other cultures do not teach this. These are Christian values that have been taken from scripture and incorporated into western culture. It's easy for secularists today to say "do away with Christianity, we don't need it to be good". But we forget where our modern concepts of morality first came from. Please look up the origins of charity, or mercy. Christian moral codes have been written into nearly every western constitution, and is inherent in our social norms, laws, and identity.
teahouse100 6 months ago
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teahouse100 6 months ago
@windigo77 People can be good without knowing these teachings; but again, this plays into Moral Law. Do you believe the only reason we behave is for the well-being of society? I think we deserve more credit than that. And I'm sure you feel rattled when you witness injustice, inequality and suffering to other humans, not a social system. If it is all just a social contract, how do we judge Nazi Germany's actions? What sort of a contract is it when an entire society let its morals relapse..
teahouse100 6 months ago
@windigo77 Jesus was radical for his context (or any context). But looking back, his actions were so obviously right that even atheists cannot discredit it (although they dispute Jesus is God). Early Christians were persecuted since their belief in God, Jesus Christ, did not conform to traditional ideas of God. God created us in His image; like Jesus Christ. And It may be hard to understand, but this makes so much sense to me. That God's grace can manifest in all.
teahouse100 6 months ago
@teahouse100 No he wasn't radical. Not at all. Just because the old testament makes the world seem like it used to be a horrible awful place, that doesn't mean his teachings were radical.. Do you think that, while all that war was going on in the middle east that it wasn't EXAGGERATED like all things are? You get 10,000 years and condense it into a few pages, and only point out the big events - sure it's going to sound worse than it really was.
windigo77 6 months ago
@windigo77 Jesus wasn't radical? So getting killed willingly was the norm? This is a period where it was criminal to befriend, or to be seen with the poor, gentiles, prostitutes, the "unclean", etc. Jesus through his teachings and how he lived demonstrated perfect forgiveness, divine mercy, and grace; that we are all unique, yet equal under God. You may call this exaggerated altruism, but the Bible provides different records of Christ's life showing that this happened. It's also part faith.
teahouse100 6 months ago
@teahouse100 I am an atheist that is discrediting it. Jesus did nothing but point out the obvious. Ironically Jesus himself disproved the concept of 'Objective Morality', a concept that your ENTIRE religion depends on when he was quoted saying "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" - Wow, so Jesus just said that Morality is subjective and NOT deturmined by an objective God. Funny!
windigo77 6 months ago
@windigo77 Jesus did not claim morality was subjective. I don't think you are entirely convinced of this either. Unlike what many so-called Christians believe today, Christ's teachings were pretty strict; it was not just merely a matter of acting "good". There is no way persons profiteering from religion are gaining any favour from God. And if you read the mortal sins you will realize that Christ's account of morality is not relative.
teahouse100 6 months ago
@teahouse100 If the absurdity of your religious beliefs make sense to you. I don't know if I could feel more sorry for you. I UNDERSTAND your religious beliefs. They are just stupid. I understand why they 'make so much sense to you', but that doesn't mean they are true. The problem is between your ears.
windigo77 6 months ago
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teahouse100 6 months ago
@windigo77 Again, the Christian God is a personal God (not some deity or God of the Gaps). I don't expect people to believe in Christianity because of bare science. Especially in this age of ramped skepticism, where things not quantifiable by materialism or positivism have no value. Secular cynicism is an overused sword that is constantly used to attack anyone's beliefs that don't fit the rubric of science. I love science, but I'm tired of people trying to make me ashamed for being Christian
teahouse100 6 months ago
@windigo77 Would you claim that you understand what it is to be Jewish too? Probably not, because it's political; but it's easy to assert this about Christians. There is a divisive and militant backlash against Christians today. Perhaps its because Christians are still mainstream and aggressive secularists still see Christians as the biggest threat. Also because atheists like Bill Mahr and Dawkins are polarizing sectarian lines as progressive Christians are grouped with the fundamentalists..
teahouse100 6 months ago
@windigo77 Where does simplicity come from, 0? Or does it simply derive itself from nothing. Super complexity, rising from complexity, rising from non-complexity implies that there is a logic behind it, no? Does this logic create itself, where does it come from; otherwise, why isn't complexity static? And how come this super-complexity developed into rational intelligence that enables us to comprehend a (coincidentally) rational universe? Where does our "irrational" belief in God fit into this?
teahouse100 6 months ago
@teahouse100 well, what is the 'simplest' thing you can think of... the answer should be 'nothing' - so yes. I believe through the recent discovery of 'virtual particles' that we have in fact proven that something can come out of nothing, in fact nothing is constantly producing 'something', because existence itself is a wave constantly switching back and forth between existence and non-existence, and matter is when two of these waves are inverse of each other. -none of this matters to my atheism
windigo77 6 months ago
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teahouse100 6 months ago
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@windigo77 I'm not really familiar with virtual particles. Do they really come from nothing or do they come from energy? Quantum energy abides by the laws of physics and energy conservation so it's not caused by nothing. I think we are similar because we both have faith. You have faith in a vacuous and idle-nothingness creating our complex universe including laws, constants, life, rationality, morality, love, and faith - and I have faith that God did this :)
teahouse100 6 months ago
@teahouse100 Uh no. I don't have faith in that. I don't believe that is the answer necessarily either. It's just a proposal, I don't particularly have an opinion either direction. The problem is that you DO. You believe God did it all, and that as such he deserves to be worshipped and your children indoctrinated and sex shamed and such because of it. Utter ridiculousness. The arrogance you exhibit is amazing.
windigo77 6 months ago
@windigo77 What is wrong with teaching children about Christianity? How is this different from "indoctrinating" them with atheism. Christians tend to live pretty fulfilling lives. They have great work ethics, they're outgoing, compassionate, charitable - they tend to avert over-drinking, hedonism, sexual promiscuity, and are taught good morals all around. Whether children want to listen to these teachings, or not, is up to them. Thank you for the discussion :)
teahouse100 6 months ago
@teahouse100 I don't quite understand how religious people can't figure out the difference between 'teaching' and 'indoctrinating'. The difference is quite large. When you teach somebody something, you explain how it works - when you indoctrinate you engage in things such as 'if you don't believe you will burn in hell', and/or use peer pressure and give 'special treatment' to those who obey. One is education, the other is coercive.
windigo77 6 months ago
@teahouse100 Look, I'll even give you the definition: "Teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically" - do you understand the difference yet?
windigo77 6 months ago
@teahouse100 I also want to point out that you are attempting to use questions as if they were an argument. questions are not arguments. You don't win a debate by asking questions and when nobody answers them declare victory. That's not how it works, and if you think that is how it works, you are wrong.
windigo77 6 months ago
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teahouse100 6 months ago
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teahouse100 6 months ago
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@windigo77 Lol. I'm not trying to win a debate here, I'm merely defending my position. And sorry if I sound condescending, but I am more interested in finding the truth instead of declaring "victory". Debates tend to reinforce bigotry and self-image rather than achieving understanding between parties. Discussion is far more valuable, and less polarizing.
teahouse100 6 months ago
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teahouse100 6 months ago
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teahouse100 6 months ago
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@windigo77 Christians don't believe in magic. Miracles are different. Quantum physics claims that everything is based on probabilities. By definition, the odds of a miracle are very slim. I'm not a huge miracle believer - but if there was one miracle, it so difficult to believe that Christ lived, died on the Cross, and was resurrected? And If there is an omnipotent God, I'm sure he would reserve the power to do this.
teahouse100 6 months ago
@teahouse100 Besides, you need not move any further than evolution to disprove the biblical God, and I don't define God as being anything more then that. So if you are arguing the mechanism of evolution as being created by your deity, then you are arguing for a straw man. I do not hold a position that the DNA molecule wasn't designed, I hold that the God as described by the bible as the creator of life on earth with Adam and Eve as the first man and woman to be false. I'm an Atheist.
windigo77 6 months ago
@windigo77 You are attacking me from all different fronts here? haha.
God in the Bible does exist. Certainly. If you skim the Bible like many do today, and find superficial faults, contradictions, so on, you are not reading it for what it is. It is not a book written by God, it was written by various authors at various times; it includes historical records as well as allegories, cultural practices, rites and so on. The Old Testament is very different from the New Testament.
teahouse100 6 months ago
@teahouse100 Various authors at different times? Oh yeah, and talking about different gods (FYI Abraham was a polytheist/pegan)- don't forget THAT part. Please, if you want to try and convince Atheists and/or understand their position, check out the video "History of God" here on youtube by a user named Evid3nc3.
windigo77 6 months ago
@windigo77 Well, someone didn't sit down and say "Ok. I think I am going to write a Bible". The books in the New Testament are separate records about the life of Christ. The Old Testament served a slightly different purpose by combining theology, culture norms, and Hebrew Law. You can say the Old Testament refers to stoning women, homosexuals, etc., but you have to realize they didn't have a women's rights movement back then - nor did they have gay rights. Its more complex than that.
teahouse100 6 months ago
@teahouse100 You are missing a BIG point. In the bible GOD commands those immoral punishments. Not man. Are you admitting that when the old testament prophers wrote that God commanded it that they were lying?
windigo77 6 months ago
@windigo77 I was an agnostic. But I can't claim (apart from my Christian faith) any absolute truth in this word; everything becomes relativistic after a while. I thought about this and have conceded that the more we know - the more we're aware we don't know. (As cliche as this is) The only real certainty is death. More to the point, I don't know if it is really worth arguing because you have your world view and I have mine; I doubt we will sway each other. All I can say is Christ for me is true.
teahouse100 6 months ago
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teahouse100 6 months ago
@windigo77 And the only way to understand Christianity is if you make a genuine attempt to live it. I don't expect people to flock to Christianity because of the "science" behind it. Especially in this age of ramped skepticism, where anything not quantifiable by materialism or positivism has no value. The Bible isn't a science text, nor was it intended to be; whether the earth was created in 6 days or is a metaphor for 6 billion years is irrelevant; the point is that God made it.
teahouse100 6 months ago
@teahouse100 What fronts? What attacks? We were talking about evolution, you lose so you start talking about DNA, playing God of the Gaps. Your the only one changing the 'front'.
windigo77 6 months ago
@teahouse100 our spinal columns are VERY poorly designed for walking upright - that is why so many people end up with back problems. A human being could EASILY design a better spine - but God can't? A human could EASILY design a better eye - so why didn't God? Basically, if you think life is designed - then the designer would have to be either an incredibly poor engineer, or - like evolution says - built up in as a series of advantageous traits over time to different environments.
windigo77 6 months ago
@windigo77 Hmm, but we are all different. If Science wants to make us all into perfected homo-sapiens, with perfect spines, perfect health, perfect looks then where is the challenge in life? Plus, isn't this what Nazi scientists tried to do with eugenics?
God as an incredibly poor engineer? People still cannot even comprehend the complexity of the DNA alphabet.. Let alone the preciseness and fine tuning of the universe to meet "our" conditions for life.
teahouse100 6 months ago
@teahouse100 Yeah, and your arguing DNA instead of the god as described by the bible, and as such you have lost the argument. The god of the bible doesn't exist.
windigo77 6 months ago
@teahouse100 Life is fine tuned for the environment, not the other way around. The God of the bible DOESN'T actually exist. If you DON'T read it with it's contradictions and everything intact then you are being dishonest when you claim that the God of the bible IS true.
Oh well, this argument is fruitless - if you want to be a crazy religious nut job have at it, but like I said, don't blame the guy who doesn't snap his fingers at the birds.
windigo77 6 months ago
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teahouse100 6 months ago
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teahouse100 6 months ago
@windigo77 Thank you for this gem of advice.
I'm not LDS either. But maybe you should take your own advice about snapping your fingers. After all, you are the one on a religious blog, blogging against other people's beliefs, and pinning religious people as psychologically indisposed. As far as I know, atheists still make up a small minority and non-religious doesn't imply atheism. Can I ask you, do you believe most people are "nut jobs" with the exception of a small percentage of atheists?
teahouse100 6 months ago
@teahouse100 In what way should I take my own advise about snapping fingers? 20% isn't that small, especially considering the fact that 90% of the intellectual elite are Atheists. We aren't exactly in a powerless position... Actually it does, the word 'A(non)-theist(believer in God) means non-believer. I'm not saying I KNOW there is no God, simply 'among the things I believe exist, God is not among them'. But the biblical God is self contradictory, and thus can be proven to not exist.
windigo77 6 months ago
@windigo77 Why do you keep equating intellectual elite with having a better understanding of God, and particularly a personal God. This is an elitist view, and the fact that someone is powerful, rich, intelligent holds not gravity in this discussion. If you want to disbelieve in an immaterial God based on popular authorities such as Dawkins that's fine; but I have little respect for someone who discredits God as intellectual baggage. God by definition cannot be intellectualized.
teahouse100 6 months ago