Why I Chose Closed Cell Insulation - EnviroGreen Customer Shares

[HomeEnergyNow]

Our "community" power company is raising rates again, now higher than the for profits(partly do to rebate programs). Our Federal Govt is at their debt limit, Obamas "green jobs" has officially shown itself a complete and utter pissing away of a whole lot of money. Many states are broke, and people STILL have their hands out for rebates and incentives....................­ARE YOU STUPID PEOPLE? Or just plain greedy to the point you know it is stupid but don't care?

[MrChemicalguru]

Good choice on the closed cell, Open cell foams exibit no physical properties that demonstrate and effective air barrier or vapor barrier. I would also verify the foam you installed meets current code and has an ICC approval. I also, am concerned about sugar cane based poly's they tend to exibit an excellent food source for rodents and insects,

[HomeEnergyNow]

@MrChemicalguru Most professionals in most climate zones in the USA realize vapor barriers(not retarders) are a BAD thing, recommended against even by the DOE. Why is it when we test open cell homes, or closed cell homes they are both WAY too air tight, so now you also get an extra cost of bringing in fresh air, as if the extra cost of air sealing and a sub-par R-value aren't poor choices already. I have multiple licenses in Res Home Performance, open or closed cell foam, is dumb and dumber.

[noclouds111]

I forgot to mention that we will add an ice and weather membrane beneath the shingles as an added security. We, too were concerned about the permanent characteristics of foam.

One still unproven item concerning the new foam is its' relatively short history.

No ones knows its' long-term effects.

[d1incharge]

@noclouds111 90+% of roof leaks are at penetrations, or seams like funny valleys or crickets for flue chases. More money on a tar paper probably won't change anything, but at least you know your air change rate for your home, that is rare, and how did you find just the first floor air leakage rate? I imagine your interested in r-value in tight space and that is why you want to go foam, because any home can be sealed tighter than need be with a blower door and a vairety of sealants.

[noclouds111]

@d1incharge We had a complete home energy audit, which is partial requirement to qualify for incentives related to a geo install, and also a solar array on the roof. After the whole-house audit, I had the crew seal off the upstairs, then run the air seepage test through the 1st fl.

Being a small cape, I have only one passage to distribute air to the 2nd fl. That is at the very peak of the roof with little room for insulation. Foam fits the bill.

The roof membrane is a rubberized sheet.

[HomeEnergyNow]

@noclouds111 "incentives" ? Good god who claimed to offer you an "incentive'? I don't even have to ask the details, you got robbed both on the insulation, and the "incentives". Anybody offering a rebate or incentive will give you a 500$ rebate, then charge it's customers/or taxpayers 6-800$ to do so, thanks, good job. The companies that offer rebates or incentives here, people think they are great, ofcourse we pay 500$ less per year in KWH rates, because our e-company doesn't offer them!

[noclouds111]

@HomeEnergyNow Not so fast, my friend. Incentives on the Geo totaled 2/3rds of the final bill. This includes Fed tax rebate & St of CT rebates based on the size of our Geo unit. We made out quite well and did our homework beforehand.

[HomeEnergyNow]

@noclouds111 Where do you think that money comes from? Who do you think pays in to get that money out? I can't see anything American in forcing taxpayers to help homeowners justify spending a dollar to save a dime. If you did your research and you can tell me a rich donor paid for it.......good, sweet program. But if you took federal incentives/credits or local "rebates" unknowing poor people helped pay for your setup, might be good for you, but is if fair, or American?

[noclouds111]

@HomeEnergyNow Alot of things in life are not fair. I didn't make the rules.

The same rules repave your highways, and touch your lfe at virtually every point.

Your argument is with your legislators who make the rules.

[HomeEnergyNow]

@noclouds111 Stupid rules only apply to stupid people, its not just mine, it is our problem. Unless you don't pay taxes, or you don't have any money. Some of it they charge you for, some of it is printed money that devalues your money. Either way, taking it is more than just "allowed by rules" it is stupid, it will only cost your more than you took, and if your too stupid to realize that than fine, how is that federal budget doing? I guess if you are too poor to pay for it, sure, accept welfare.

[noclouds111]

@HomeEnergyNow You are unaware of a much larger problem. It is our dependence on foreign oil, and our compulsion to create wars to protect our oil interests, under the guise of 'democracy for all'.

The 'printed money' you refer to is helping to pay for that mess.

Had it not been for these 'wars' and the billions of dollars daily required to support them, there would not be a debt problem.

Geothermal & incentives have a much larger payback than you can imagine.

[HomeEnergyNow]

That is a different problem. I am in the business, when I insulated my own house, I still refused to file for a "tax credit" or "rebate" that way I am not part of a problem. I agree with the war thing, but I calculate return on investments for home energy upgrades damn near daily and I can promise you, I make or lose 6% on all my money, whether paying in on a mortgage or loaning money, 50k for geo is 2600$/year just in interest, thats more than what I pay for energy! LOL Just like spray foam.

[noclouds111]

@HomeEnergyNow I respect your principles, however, even with a complete retrofit, the Geo was nowhere near the cost you quote.

Again, we feel that the 'return' on investment goes beyond the boundries of money.

[HomeEnergyNow]

@noclouds111 Of all of the "green" systems out there, geothermal is my favorite. Some places the drilling is high, high dollar and that is too bad. I apologize for the rudeness I just have some built up aggression toward rebates, it has made my industry so tough to be in, surrounded by gubment money chasers in suits claiming to be "energy experts" selling any kind of snake oil on the market. Spray foam, solar attic fans, housewrap, all cost more than superior alternatives.

[noclouds111]

@HomeEnergyNow That's quite alright. I've 'met' alot of very interesting people here, and sometimes I wish we weren't separated by the internet. A keyboard is a crude way to funnel emotion, facial expression, and all the nuances of communication. These are all things which are so clear in person.

You're just the person I would choose if I was investigating green energy.

Cheers!

[HomeEnergyNow]

Should have mentioned you got robbed on the geothermal too! Put all your expenses for the geothermal/insulation/energy audits just ANYTHING you spent on that project. Now take that 40-50,000$, and invest it into a safe 3% investment, or pay on a 6% mortgage, both of those options will pay back MUCH better than what you will save on energy. You can spend 10 dollars to save a dime, but in our industry we usually recommend against it.

[noclouds111]

@HomeEnergyNow For geothermal, we spent nowhere near the figure you've mentioned. It works beautifully, and we'd do it again. We decided not to foam (that was a year ago).

[d1incharge]

@noclouds111 90+% of roof leaks are at penetrations, or seams like funny valleys or crickets for flue chases. Knowing the air change rate for your home is rare, how did you find just the first floor air leakage rate? I imagine your interested in r-value in tight space and that is why you want to go foam, because any home can be sealed tighter than need be with a blower door and a vairety of sealants for much less money.

[d1incharge]

Your home is required to have 100% new outside air every 3 hours....sealing like an ice chest would kill you slowly...not to mention, thanks to sweat, breath, showers, washers, pets, cooking, your home will always have equal or greater moisture content. Closed cell foam will only hide roof leaks until the sheathing is destroyed by them, meaning removing the sheathing and the insulation goes right with it........now you are conditioning an extra room, your attic. vs. insulating the ceiling

[noclouds111]

@d1incharge good point. We are currently dormering the 2nd floor in a home built in 1953. The new upstairs and roof will have closed cell, though. There is enough air leakage on the first floor + the incorporation of a new geotherm unit to move the air within the home.