I see "Yoko Ono" is up to the same old stuff. Let's see...meds today??? BTW...is there, available, a med(s) for irrational state of mind, general stupidity, "could of" syndrome, "proclamation" syndrome and a thick, brown gelatinous discharge???
I don't, do you? You must be talking about the MOW & CY lovers.I tell it like it is. If any other horse done what Secretariat did he probably be my horse. I judge who is the best not being bias to any horse, person or thing. The truth is the truth with no lies. Secretariat was floored by Charles Hatton. I was also. Not only of the way he looked but the incredible things he done. The same was with Arcaro who was not bias to CY or Kelso. He was no 'Bown Noser'.
Some of you guys have met Ms Chenery....and that can explain hysteria on the thread. For ex, when Evyn says, "don't get too over-excited about any of it..." It's just not the norm. So, you guys must be worrying yourselves what someone 'else' thinks or similar. That someone, must be her.
But more likely the judge would have them admitted to a insane asylum. I can see why he would do that no doubt. Their damage control is so bad they have to tell tall tales & when asked to prove it they totally ignore the question. They say themselves they are 'Bias'. Hell, they need not to tell us that. We already know.
They also know they are on the other end of a losing debate & trying to hold on saying anything. How sad but true.
These idiots don't even know the difference from the best horse ever rode & the best horse ever seen. Arcaro told Turcotte plain but Secretariat was the fastest & best SOB he ever seen no ifs or butts about it. . Nack reported him saying that. Christine told about it in is interview with him yet those MOW, & CY lovers want to deny it. They totally refuse to accept that. Their case would be thrown out in a court of law the 1st day laughing at them going out the door. Cont.
I see it's the same old conversation over here... Eddie this, Hatton that, Nack... Listen, one thing, just no more Nack quotes... Ever. Good guy, but he's more in love with Sec than you guys are and that's a tough feat.
So anyhow as soon as y'all come up with some new material I'll come back and check on you three railbirds. I'm guessing you'll still be here exchanging messages back and forth about how darn pretty Secretariat was. And he was a looker, that one. Precious.
Not only that my good man he also had a coughing virus in that race as well. They know it yet never mention that. He was was not trained for the Man 0' War race or the Woodbine like he was in his T.C. races either. Never mention that either. He was trained to perfection so he could win the T.C. When he was fit like that no horse could touch his ass. Only 4 workouts after 6 wks of sickness still not top form yet W.R. set & 1:574/5 pulling up. Not top form yet better than all ever.
Apologies for all the posts. I've said my peace. Look at the very first comments on this page -- lots of love for both horses. That's the way it should be.
If you think a horse knows about winning a race then I know for sure you are totally insane. I would be ashame & tell it here to everyone. I guess you think these horses will got to heaven & race up there. Maybe the pet rats & sankes will be there with them. Yes you are a idiot & proved it. I would CY. MOW & The Fleet make up over 4 seconds on Secretariat & even more because Secretariat more than capable of running it much faster? No old time track horseman will agree with you.
No. No horse knows anything about "a race" in human terms. But what they know about is being the leader of the pack, and that's what being in front equates to.
No horse knows "the finish line." That's why they take so long to run out and pull up. But when they're going they definitely know who's in front and who's not -- and they definitely want to be in front.
A racehorse will run itself to death if allowed trying to "win" "be the leader" however you want to call it.
In other words if a horse is rated no matter what a jocky does he will not slow down if a horse is in front of him. No way of controlling him yet the jockey pulls him up fairly easy after the finish line. Never heard anything so stupid in my entire life.Slew 103 never gave me the ass. I kicked his asss all over the place & he went and hide.You still have not told me how they would make-up over 4 sec. on Big Red. Is it by going all out? Right, they would falter in the strecth. Not BR.
Oh man, you told me you had time on horses so I took you at your word. Look, it's simple. Every horse can be rated during a race -- how much varies on the horse. Some a little, some a lot.
Now when they cross the finish line Jockeys do this thing that let's the horse know the fat lady has sung -- they stand up and pull back on those reins. Now from the thousands of times the horse has practiced on the track, they know what that means. Elementary.
One other thing rscarbro... so you think it's easy to pull up a hell-bent horse in the middle of a race?
Ask Vasquez how easy it was to pull Ruffian up after she broke her leg and still tried to keep running, smashing her bones into the ground. It took him forever to get her stopped cause Foolish Pleasure was bounding away and she wanted to whup his ass. Oh, you don't think they want to win/lead/dominate? Wow.
(no disrespect to Ruffian, love that horse, making a point).
Ruffian was hurt & confused not beacuse of she wanted to kick FP ass. Your so dumb its unbelievable. Go to school & learn something. Common sesnse school that is.If a jockey cannot slow or speed up his horse then he does not know anything about riding a horse. He can slow down a horse during the race just like he can when he finis ha race. Stand higher in the saddle & that will not give him the bit. Dr. Fager ran many different paces during his races.
It is very simple that Big Red was not all out in the Belmont when his fractions were slower than his workouts in 'MUD'. His fractions were slower than his M.C. race. Ronnie could have sped him up even more as Red Smith pointed out in his article from the swift. The reason he was not tired after the race was doing it without raising a sweat as Kent Hollingsworth had stated as well as many others is because he was not all out. He was galloping along with 'EASE'. Awsome ease. Hehehe
Whats was the deal with MOW? Kummer seen not to have any trouble easing MOW last 1/16 fo a mile or have him restraint or strong hold. Was he a super strong jockey or was MOW a pussy & Fager a much sronger horse to hold back? How about it 'Sissy'.
You've gotta stop thinking of horses as cars. Every one of them behaves differently.
MOW and Secretariat both did what their jockeys asked, every time. That's what you want. The opposite of that would be Whirlaway, who won the TC despite rarely doing what his jockey wanted.
Fager was notorious for being an obnoxious headstrong horse that couldn't stand to see another horse in front of him and was nearly impossible to rate -- getting him beat twice with rabbits vs Damascus.
Slew 103 was the one that said Secretariat could not run the Belmont any faster if he tried. Ignoring what other experts said who was there. Same in the M.C. race. Even Fager jockey said he did it with awsome ease. He also the one that said Eddie would have to tell him in heaven if Secretariat was better than CY. You said the exact same thing. You follow him & BigCY to the tee. You copy off each other or you one & the same person. I believe one & the same no doubt. All Big Red haters.
Yep I said I'd have to hear it from Eddie himself to know what Eddie meant since Eddie seemed to change his mind a lot. To Slew that means Eddie said Citation is the best and I agree that seems to be what Eddie said. Of course I read Eddie saying Kelso would beat Citation and I love ol' Kelso so it's not entirely clear. And to you, you hold to Eddie's observance from the stands, proclaiming Sec the best.
Confusion abounds. i'll have to hear it from Eddie.
Seems to me Eddie was pretty well straight forward. The yr. was 1996 the yr. he died. The question was put to him. He had no ties to Secretariat but CY & Kelso he did. He rode these 2 horses. He plainly said CY & Kelso were the best 2 horses he ever rode plain & simple but rated Secretariat the best he ever seen. He made the same statements before even on TV when he said CY the best he ever rode So nothing new. If you don't know what he meant by that statement then what do you know?
Don't hand me this BS about Eddie observing him from the stands. He also observed CY & Kelso from the stands as well. He did not ride these horses their whole career. He knew what CY & Kelso was capable of. What a poor excuse if I ever heard one. Eddie knew just by seeing him run he knew he was better than the 2 horses he rode. Thats how good Big Red was. You & others make a mountain out of a mole hill. He told others well before 1996 Big Red was best. Get over it & accept the truth.
Big Red was MOW, the best racehorse to ever grace this planet. Big Cy and Slew love Citation, and feel the same about him. Quite a different thing. Try to keep up.
Slew 103 said they redone Belmont just so Secretariat could win & set a record. No facts nowhere that is true. He is copying off what they did in 1919 where they completly redone the track & in 1920 it was one of the fastest tracks in the entire country. These are true facts. MOW did not stumble in the Dwyer. N.Y. Times proves that & did not say anything about the trees had the start hidden. I still laughing at that one. How silly you MOW lovers are. What total idiots.
The way it should be is you quit telling big lies. Then maybe then you will be treated nice. And quit being more than one person. We all know your playing a game period.
War admiral cut himself wide open at the start of the Belmont, spraying blood all over himself and won. Count Fleet severely injured his leg in the stretch run of the Belmont and wouldn't be held back and crushed the field. Citation raced injured and in pain past 3. Dr. Fager and Kelso laughed at weight. MOW tripped at the start of the Dwyer and still won.
You put the best horses in the '73 Belmont and you think Sec wins by 31? YOU ARE DREAMING. If he wins it's by a length, or two.
Secretariat would have ran all of them into the fround with that tremendous pace in the Belmont. None of them could stand that pressure. All the experts thought Secretariat lost the race when setting that fast pace. They knew no horse could do it not even MOW, CY, The Fleet but was they surprised. Thats the reason Jerry Isenburg said he said 'Peagsus' that day. Thats right he had wings. They never see the likes of him again nor did they see it with MOW, CY or The Fleet. Keep dreaming.
Listen a bit closer, I never said those horses could beat Sec at the Belmont. He was on fire that day. I said it'd be close. No blowout, no way. Other races, other days, absolutely they could beat him and vice versa. Sec had a brilliant TC, doesn't make him the best horse. I know you're not capable of absorbing this from reading all your other "conversations" with others.
Track speed not important? Not a fast track at 73 Belmont?? Really? So why has Sec's Belmont Dirt WR at 1 1/2 held up, but his Derby 1 1/4 and Preakness 1 3/16'ths records both been broken on dirt in other races? (And no I don't care that the horses that beat those records were 4, because no 4 year old has beaten Sec's Belmont time).
Tracks matter, that's what. That track was fast as hell, and his competition was pathetic. Any of the super horses run that 73 Belmont near 2:24.
First of all no horse has broken Big Red Derby time. The Derby is a clay track & why no horse has ever broken it? Secretariat time don't tell the whole story. In a large field taking the long route, wide in both turns coming from 11 lengths back & the track was about 1 sec. slower than when Nothern Dancer ran . If he ran on ND track the time 1:58 2/5. If ran the rail 1:57 4/5 No horse has broken his Derby record. His Preakness has only been tied.
You know all of this & you should also know he broke every record from 1 1/8 mile to the 1 1/4 mile in the Marlboro Cup taking the long route besides breaking the 1 3/8, 1 1/2 and the 1 5/8 records in his Belmont victory. The 1 3/16, 1 1/4 in M.C. & 1 5/8 record was all done 'Pulling Up'. Holy Molly what a Hoss.
No horse has beaten Secretariat Belmont time on dirt, any track. Only on a grass course. How come all the tens of housands of races done on 1 1/2 mile dirt courses no horse has yet came within 1 4/5 seconds of his record? You want to even compare his Belmont times with horses doing it on a turf track. Your getting pretty desperate aren't you? You will try anything to down grade him but its not working. You know nothing about horse racing period.Cont.
Wow, way to repeat what I just said. No horse has ever gone faster for 1 1/2 on dirt in any race than Secretariat. But horses have ran faster than Secretariat at every other distance on dirt. Exactly my point. The Belmont was his signature race -- take that away and he's not even a top 5 horse. With it he's a top three horse.
How come no horse has ran a Churchill Downs dirt track better than 1:59.40 with all the races that has been done there with most all the greats have ran it except for Man 0' War in which Riddle thought he was still to little of baby to run that early. Holy Cow. Maybe he knew he could not run on 'Clay' nor grass either for that matter because he never did. Maybe because of the real large field entered there in 1920 Derby. Afraid of being boxed in again & couldn't get by? Hehehe
There wouldn't have been a large field in the 1920 KD if MOW had entered. At least half the field would have scratched because he ended his 2 year old season by trouncing every horse out there including "Upset" and carrying more weight than Sec did as a 3 year old. If MOW had been in the 1920 KD you'd be crying about how he only ran against a few horses in the derby when he wiped that field out.
No disrespect to Secretariat. No idolization of MOW. They were very close. So were Count Fleet, Citation, Dr. Fager, Kelso, etc. The top horses were monsters.
Someone on here said horses don't want to win. Are you kidding me? Racehorses LIVE TO WIN. The best horses HATE TO LOSE. They hate to have another horse in front of them. That's why they have to be RATED. Or else they'll just go all out from the start.
Race the best against the best: No blowouts. Super horses do not fold.
Track times: Let me quote Sec fan BBMTGE from 2 years ago:
"The notion of comparing these two by time alone is erroneous. I don't believe it a true measure of either horse for the reason stated: we will never know their true capacities." END QUOTE.
You can't pull out the DRF and compare straight track times. Doesn't work like that. Track's change, conditions change. "Fast" at Aqueduct isn't "fast" at Belmont. Fast at Belmont isn't fast at Santa Anita. TRACK VARIANCE. It's huge.
Eddie Arcaro... a bit wearisome hearing how Eddie felt Secretariat was the best when you can go to the Citation page right here on youtube and hear Eddie say right in your face that Citation was the best... read the Citation book by Georgeoff a friend of Eddie's where he quotes Eddie saying Citation was the greatest he'd ever seen or ridden. And I'm a Kelso and MOW fan. So I guess I'll have to hear it from Eddie himself someday.
Eddie said right in your face he was the best he ever rode. Do you know the difference between being the best you rode and the best he ever seen? MOW was 16.2 hands same as Secretariat. Were in the hell do you get your information? Slew 103 said he would have to hear it from Eddie. You, Slew 103 & Big Cy are one & the same. Who are you trying to kidd? Only in your dreams it would be close CY, MOW & other great in Secretariats Belmont. Your living in a fanasty world & you know it.
I've read every comment here because I enjoy the conversation. I wish I knew as much about racing as Slew103 because he handed your ass to you over and over again. Slew and Big Cy are Citation fans, and after reading their comments I have to say I haven't given Citation enough credit. But I'm not them and they aren't me.
I'll always believe MOW is the best -- but I'll also always admit I could be wrong, which is something you don't seem to be capable of. Your problem, not mine.
rscarbo and co., good at hurling insults. I've hurled a few at them as well. My apologies. They accuse me of being Big Cy. Pretty funny as Big Cy probably doesn't appreciate me not feeling Citation was the greatest horse (he might be, but I favor a few others -- feel Cy is right up there though). But Big Cy doesn't call me an idiot or a liar, he has class. Duckworth loves Citation too, but he doesn't feel the need to beat other people over the head with it. That's class.
Other comments... Secretariat ran faster than MOW at every distance. NO. MOW ran 1 5/8ths faster. And that was in 1920. But it doesn't matter that it was 1920 because track times change dramatically, it's called Track Variance and it's huge.
Track Times are not the judge of a racehorse. Winning is. I know it's hard to comprehend, but it's a sport, and winning is what counts. MOW, Citation at 3, Count Fleet, they won easily. NO ONE KNOWS HOW FAST THEY COULD HAVE RUN.
I've read every crazy comment on here. Secretariat could outrun every other horse because of his heart size. No. He's not the only horse to carry the gene for heart size. MOW has been shown to have had it too. No one knows what MOW's heart size was because he wasn't autopsied.
Other silly comments... Secretariat dwarfed all other horses. No. Wrong. Sec was 16.2 hands, 1175 pounds. Dr. Fager same height, big horse. MOW 16.5 hands. Ruffian, 17.5 hands, Seattle Slew, muscle-bound...
You put the top 10 horses in the world in the '73 Belmont and you have a close race won by a length or two. You don't have a blowout. Let me emphasize that for people who are new to racing or just don't get it, NO BLOWOUTS. It just isn't going to happen.
A 3-year old Sec blowing out a 3-year old Citation? NO WAY. Sec blowing away MOW? No way. Dr. Fager? NO. Could he beat them? OF COURSE. Could they beat him? Absolutely.
Some of the comments on this page are beyond ridiculous. The Secretariat booster club all talking to themselves, and accusing people who disagree with them of being someone else who disagreed with them "in disguise." Comical.
MOW, Secretariat, Count Fleet, Citation, Dr. Fager... All Super Horses. The best of the breed. There are others as well. All very close. Let me repeat that, VERY CLOSE. Can't emphasize that enough, VERY CLOSE. No all-powerful dominating winner.
His answer about Eddy was bar room talk&r Eddy made the statement once Citation is 1 pound better than Secretariat. He is a liar.. If that was ever written it would be in Georgeff book. Georgeff thought CY was better because he beaten older horses before the T.C. How in the hell would that make Citation better I'll never know in 2 life times. You also would not to have to go any further to look at the sorry horses he beat. Armed was already washed up. The rest were champs of nothing.
Evyn is BigCy my good man.He argues the very same points over on the Citation video. They are one and the same. To many of us have already figure it out. He is the biggest Secretariat hater of all times. Write such bullshit not even a kid would believe it as you probably have fiured it out yourself. He is overly possessed with him & only with MOW over here just to down play Secretariat. He is a total failure in every since of the word. I truly believe he is Phil Georgeff son.
It is always interesting to read posts from people who are can't even approach "critical thinking". It's "someone said this, someone said that". The majority of the time, the statement is misquoted or downright wrong. In that it supports a predetermined point of view and regardless of accuracy, they embrace it. The most confounding is the BH 100. Who cares??? No reasoning, no rationale. A skewed vote to guarantee a particular outcome. But, again, WHO CARES!!!
The Count tore a tenion in that race by over working it or had a mis-step. It will later swell and collect fluid that will cause lameness. He did not affect thim in the race at all. Every little information you find you use it for a excuse that they could have ran it faster than Secretariat. Are you kin to Bud Delp?
What's your point? The Fleet rapped his ankle in the stretch and Longden tried to pull him up. The Fleet wouldn't have it and just kept charging, turning what could have been a minor injury into a major one. Owner Hertz retired him out of respect, saying he wouldn't have the champ appear again all patched up. A damn shame because we never saw how fast that horse could run. He romped the TC with ease and obviously could have run faster.
Another total lie. If a jockey wants to pul his horse up he can.The Count was pulled after the race was he not? He did not rapped his anke in the strecth. Where did you read that? Probably from that liar Londgen. You would believe anthing he would say and he was known to strecth the truth a mile long. Fager was cooked in the Woodward running after a so called rabbit in 9 furlong 1:09 2/5. Ran a 1:07 4/5 in his record mile but was not cooked. Give me a break.
Oh s'bro, the world isn't full of people trying to trick you, geezus...
Bloodhorse Top 100 page 29 2nd paragraph: "Count Fleet rapped an ankle during the Belmont, though, and Hertz retired him, saying he'd never allow the champion to "appear at track as a patched-up horse."
It goes on to say Longden felt him bobble when he hurt himself and tried to take him up but Fleet wouldn't have it and I quote "grabbed the bit in that bull-headed way of his and took off again."
What did he do when The Count finished the race? He was pulled up was he not? Then don't tell me Londgen couldn't pull him up in the strecth. These horses have no idea about winning a race. I guess you think they do & after they cross the finish line they know to pull up. Are you that weird? What happen to Big Brown in the Belmont? Was he not pulled up? Your a unbelievable nut case with no common sense at all. Holy Cow.
It all the same with you MOW & Citation lovers. You telling everyone Secretariat times was the fastest he could produce & not 1/5 second faster but MOW & CY could have ran them over 4 seconds faster. This is exactly what your saying. What sane person would believe such nosense? If MOW let a fart duing a race you would use it I believe.
You said the Dr. would give Secretariat a race for his money in a 1 1/4 mile race. The rabbit made the Dr. do fractions in the Woodard in 22.2, 45 1/5, 1:09 1/5 and 1:35 3/5 mile and was cooked. Got tired and was blown away. Secretariat fractions in the M.C. 1:09 2/5. 1:33 flat for the mile. Fager already cooked here at the mile post and then Secretariat 'Pulled Up' in 1:57 4/5 for a 1 1/4 mile. How in the hell could the Dr. make it close in a 1 1/4 mile race?Cont.
Yup, that's what I said -- the Doctor would give any horse that ever lived a run for their money at 1 1/4th, and beat any horse that ever lived up to a mile.
Just read the thoroughbred legends book about Fager, you should check it out. Ran the Vosburgh for his last race with 139 pounds on a dead winterized track and still broke the TR by 4/5ths of a second (TR set by Near Man in 63 carrying 112 pounds).
You talk about Sec on turf. Check Fager's UN Handicap where he faced as BH described it "just about every top grass horse in America, including future HOY Fort Marcy" who Fager gave 16 pounds to... 1st appearance on grass and he fought through it and won.
How much weight was Sec giving those other horses on grass, hmmm?
Stats don't measure up to a great horse's will to win, and TOUGHNESS. Fager and Sec in a stretch duel up to 1 1/4... I'll go with Fager every time.
MOW was the same as Fager. Neither of those horses needed blinkers to shield them from the competition. They were tough as nails. MOW had a shitty race in the Dwyer and still won.
Cite all the meaningless stats you want from tracks with huge variances and it doesn't matter. The all-time greats would battle it out head to head, and it'd be close. There would be no blowouts. Later
Secretariat wore Blinkers only to alert him you dumb ass BigCYand he never wore bandages like the sissy MOW & CY did. You brought this up with me on the Citation video and about Belmont being a lightning fast track. Your a little boy one day & sissy littlle girl Evyn the next. Yes we are smart enough to know who you really are. One day MOW the best, next day CY the best, then Fager. A Secretariat hater from the 'GO'. Pretty screwed-up I would say.. Your sick & need help.
Edie Arcaro your hero said Secretariat faster than Count Fleet, Citation, Kelso, Dr. Gager, Slew, The Bid. The fastest horse he ever seen and rated him the best he ever seen. Who is going to take your word or Eddie Arcaro? Laffit Pincay raced Fager head to head & said Secretariat the best. You don't evem know it but you have lost even before you got started. Both these great jockies were well aware the weight these horses carried. Still Secretariat the best cry baby.
Source Thoroughbred Hertiage: There were no championships awarded in any official manner until 1936, when Triangle Publications (publishers of Daily Racing Form and Morning Telegraph) conducted a poll of its staff, and Turf and Sports Digest conducted a poll from selected sports journalists. So Secretariat was the first Amercian 2 yr. old champion selected in a offical manner. Native Dancer shared his with another horse.
Secretariat did not race a little pony distance at 7 furlongs. He ran a 1 1/2 mile and broke the track record just jogging around the track playing cat & moues with Tentam. Secretariat was a 3 yr. of under true handicap weight. Fager was 4. Secretariat could have beaten him on grass easy. He ran in "MUD' a workout in 21 3/5 seconds. No contest. Secretariat faster.
You're a smart guy, well versed in racing... but when you talk about Secretariat beating another super horse like Fager/MOW/Citation/Kelso "easily" you do yourself an injustice.
Match up the top horses and there are no easy wins. Can't overstate that enough, no easy wins, no blowouts, no way. That's what made these horses great. Their will to win.
Have enjoyed your posts, take care of yourself and try not to get too wound up. It's just a sport.
You just don't get it. Who in the world told you a horse have a will to win? Who is the dummy that told you that a horse thinks like humans.? Do you really believe a horse knows he is out there trying to win a race & know the distance & where the finish line is? If you do you like the tree huggers who say the trees talk to them & you truly need some big help. Your argument is futile. And this is the only thing you can come up with is their willing to win could have beaten Big Red.
Secretariat proved he could have beaten these other greats with 'Ease' in a 1 1/2 mile or longer race. None has ever came close to him. That race seperated him from all the other greats. His endurance was like no other with that big heart sucking up huge amount of oxygen like no other horse & maded it so easy getting less tired than a normal horse. Thats why he could run those amazing fast fractions and did not collaspe in the strecth. No other horse had muscles like him. Cont.
He looked like a weight lifter next to all other horses. Has legs of iron and took hard workouts to keep them enormous muscles in shape. Take one look at him coming on the field after Sham in the Belmont & coming into the starting gate. No horse built quite like him. He was the greatest looking running machine against any horse in history.The rest looked like Pee Wee Herman next to him. One look at him will take your breath away. I know now why Hatton was floored by him. Hehehe
Why did Seabiscuit wear 'Blinkers' sweet heart? Was he afraid of the competition too miss Secretariat hater? Can't wait to hear your excuse on this one.
Laurel Futurity race. The Daily Racing Form chart caller reported that Secretariat was, “unhurried at the start and carefully kept on the outside throughout.” The horse “responded without the need of the whip when given rein leaving the backstretch, forged to the lead entering the stretch and won in hand.”
That term, “in hand” refers to the rider’s hands, kept still and steady, with everything in control. Cont.
If he’d needed, Turcotte could have moved his hands on the reins to send a hurry-up message to Big Red. But there was no need. Turcotte and Secretariat had the Laurel Futurity victory “in hand.”End of quote. He done all this taking the long route and done in 'SLOP' winning by 8 lengths in a time of 1:42 4/5 as a 2 yr. old. MOW a 3 yr. old on a fast track ran his 1 1/16 mile in a 'TURTLE' time of 1:44 4/5. Holy Cow Big Red with super EASE in slop much faster than MOW as a 2yr. old.
Secretariat blew them all away in the Belmont and all the speculation, theories that them horses could run a 2:26 flat would be even bogus. He would have ran them into the ground like he did Sham. MOW, CY or any of them could not have stand the pressure at that fast of pace. Eddie Arcaro knew that as well & like Joe Hirsch said he seperated himself from all the greats in the Belmont & do you believe he did not know how fast that track was?. Keep dreaming.
Big Red would have cooked him & run him into the ground by the mile mark. 1:09 4/5, 1:34 1/5 in the Belmont. 1:59 flat by the 1 1/4 post and look what he had left for the rest of the race. Fractions in a workout in MUD 45 2/5, 1:09 1/5 and 1:34 flat for the mile. He would have cooked Fager in 'MUD'. Fager ran the Woodward as a 4 yr. old. Big Red never ran as a 4 yr. old. No contest. Who would run a rabbit against Secretariat? He was one himself. Rabbits for Fager none for Big Red.
The Dr. went all out in his world record mile. How do we know. Because he ran fractions much, much faster at Washington Park than he did in the Woodard. In the Woodward he was cooked going a mile in1:35 3/5 and don't tell me he wasn't cookd after going a mile in 1:32 1/5. Big Red never cooked when ran very fast fractions. Was a stayer & so much stronger going further than any horse. Proved it many times when sound & fit. 1:33 flat mile & still set a W.R. for yrs. on not so fast track.
And don't tell me Ruffian could run a 6 furlong faster than Secretariat. She ran a 1:08 3/5 from the chute in the Spinaway race. Secretariat went throught the 6 furlongs in the Gotham in the exact time and still had another 2 furlongs to go. Ran a 1:08 4/5 'Pulling Up' in his last workout before the M.C. race. Some silly crap to write about trying to make a stupid point that Ruffian was faster at 6 furlongs.Please give me a break.
@Slew103 Well said. Put any of the top 5 to 10 horses in that field in good health and there's no 31 length win. Not even a 5 length win. You'd have a dogfight and perhaps an even faster time... And maybe heart failure.
You mean to tell me that Slew, CY and MOW could have ran over 4 seconds faster in the Belmont against Secretariat and give him a good race? You absolutely got be be kidding. Again Secretariat ran his Belmont just as easy than they did. so if they could ran it that much faster then Secretariat could have ran his over 4 seconds faster. Nothing wrong with The Count in the Belmont. From that race they found out that evening he bowed a tendon. Secretariat had stronger legs.
Don't misstate what I said. I said you put any of the greats on that lightning fast '73 Belmont with Sec and you have a race on your hands. You're not gonna have a blowout. Let that sink in: No Blowouts. Those other champs were too game. They were fighters. You're gonna have a close race, within a few lengths. I didn't say who would win.
To say otherwise shows a fundamental lack of understanding of racing. Every track is different, every race is unique. Track variance is huge.
Again you are wrong. It was not a lightning fast track. The variant was .09 not the .05 on the chart. Did your read Russel Cardenas article and do you know DRF used .09 in his Beyer speed figure? Give me a break. Not even close & you know it. Your living in a dream world. Secretariat could have ran a 2:22 and changerin the Belmont & you want to believe CY, MOw & whoever else could too. Holy Cow you are totally insane.
@Slew103 Curious as to which horses you'd rank as your top 5... Understand you rate Sec better than MOW. I don't agree but am fine with others opinions. Like your posts, interested in your answer.
I have no idea if Sec was on steroids but the 70's were when they hit big time. Am pretty sure he took Lasix though, which the older horses never did.
@Slew103 Interesting comment. US's glory years produced far superior horses to any others in the world, but lately I find the European horses more interesting... Sea The Stars, Goldikova, Zarkava... Wish the US breeding could get its act together.
@Slew103 Check out my recent back and forth with the Sec fans... Seems you've already gone down this path...
On any given day the very best horses could beat each other. They're athletes, not machines. Believing otherwise is a fundamental misunderstanding of sports.
@Slew103 Like CY MOW faced every horse that dared to face him. In the LR his competition was pathetic -- not because Jefford's colt was ordered to jog, because Jefford's entered Hoodwink in the race as a favor the day after he had already raced because all other horses scratched.. Riddle promised to not let MOW embarrass her colt but instead MOW scorched the track and set a WR at 1 5/8th's that it took a horse like Kelso to match.
It was an exhibition for MOW, but it showed his will to run.
Reading Dr. Fager's book now by Haskins... excellent. Georgeff's book next. Good stuff. Ours book on MOW "Legend Like Lightning" is wonderful if you haven't read it. cheers
@Slew103 Enjoy your posts... I've gotten into it at length with the Sec crew... They just spout times with no regard for track variations, & the competition's TOUGHNESS and WILL. I'd like to see Sec in a stretch duel with MOW, Dr. Fager, Citation or Count Fleet...
I'm no expert on Cy but his TC looked ridiculously easy. Count Fleet destroyed the Belmont injured. And MOW and Fager, they were mean as hell they wouldn't tolerate ANY horse going by them.
Disagree. Horses of today are far inferior to the champs of the golden age. 40's, 60's, 70's... the greatest horses... Today's horses, fragile sprinters, no dominance, not even a hope of a triple crown.
For anyone who really gives a damn about a so-called vote, especially one that should have been voided and the member of the panel who voted Sec #14 replaced, please feel free to read what a "panel" has to say. This is recommended, in particular, to suit the deperate needs of someone who cant handle facts and detail. Further, for anyone interested in proclamations, flase claims, LIEs, distortion and most important..."COUL OF", again, please consult BH.
As I said, the rankings are wildly controversial. I only suggested people read the intro as Nack makes some good points about the difficulties of rating horses from different eras...
With regards to the "rankings" I believe they got the top 2 horses right (you think they should be swapped and Sec should be #1, I think they should be co #1's). With regards to the rest of the top 10 I disagree with pretty much every ranking they have in there -- which I'm sure you do as well.
For anyone who's interested in hearing what one of the BH panelists had to say about the arbitrariness of rating horses from different eras, read the intro to Bloodhorse's Top 100 horses.
He said it's all subjective. Read it for yourself. And this is coming from Secretariat's own biographer.
Does it not register in your brain that Secretariat ran a 1 5/8 mile 'pulling up' in 2:37 2/5 & the only reason it was not offical because it was a 1 1/2 mile race? Don't you realize this tells you what this horse was capable of? & the same in the M.C. 'PU' in 1:57 4/5. Do you believe it is not so? Does this give you any indication of what strength and speed he had? Your like a little kid. Gee daddy it don't count because it was not offical. If it was offical he could do it.BooHoo.
It registers in my mind that Secretariat is clearly one of the fastest horses who ever lived up to 2 miles, and he COULD be the best horse of all time. But as I've consistently said, which horse is the best of all time is a subjective opinion that can't be decided. I have my favorites, you have yours.
Take away the insults and I enjoy reading your posts and learn a lot from them.
I truly believe you are having much trouble trying to figure all this out & it just cannot register in you brain yet.We know you cannot see any further than the finger in front of your nose. We are here to help you. Its really simple as this. If a horse can be clocked in 2:37 2/5 'pulling Up' the last furlong common sense will tell you he could have ran a 1 5/8 mile much faster than the unoffical time of 2:37 2/5 id not pulled up. Get it yet? Need more help? Holy Cow
The Dr. only ran two 1 1/4 mile races under 2 minutes. 1:59 4/5 in the N.H. Classic and a 1:59 3/5 in the Suburban. Peagus Derby 1:59 2/5, 1:59 flat crusing past the 1 1/4 post stting a tremendous pace and another furlong to go in the Belmont. Easing up in 1:57 4/5 in M.C. after setting a tremendous pace. Who's faster at 1 1/4 miles Secretariat or that fastest horse you claim named Dr. Fager? Can you grasp that into your brain? Dr. Fager set his mile record as a 4 yr. old.Cont.
Secretariat ran the Gotham at barely 3 yrs. old and had much trouble in that race. M.C. 1:33 flat setting a tremendous pace passing the 1 mile post not from the shute. The Gotham was his last 1 mile race.If he ran a 1:33 flat mile not out of the chute he surley could have broken Fager record if ran from the shute as a 3 yr. old. Can your brain grasp that. Its called just a little bit of common sense in which you seem not to have any at all. Holy Cow
I think Fager would win a close race up to a mile and it would be close at 1 1/4 as well, with Secretariat having the edge -- what I said is the Doctor could give him a good race at 1 1/4.
Many people consider Fager to be the best miler that ever lived. Not sure why you view that as an insult to Sec in a mile race...
Secretariat's official Biographer William Nack on Man o' War and Secretariat in the introduction to Bloodhorse's top 100, where they were ranked #1 and #2 to great controversy.
Page 7, column 2, top of the page, right side: "One almost wishes they had finished in a tie, these two magnificent chestnuts, leaving one to represent the first half of the century and the other to stand for the second."
Sec would have been a monster at 4. But they also would have given him so much weight to carry he also might have gotten hurt.
While it would have been interesting to see what both Secretariat and MOW each could have done as 4-year olds, I'm glad they were both retired healthy to hit it with the ladies.
re: Fager's mile record. "Fast Track" is a non issue -- the fastest tracks are in California and this was at Arlington. Secondly he didn't "chase" the rabbit there was no rabbit -- his "competition" at the start was Hedevar, a world-class sprinter who was used by Damascus' connections to beat Fager in 2 other races at 1 1/4 miles, not 1 mile like this race. And lastly, while Fager was a 4-year old he set the record carrying 134 lbs which is appropriate weight for age.
You don't want me to talk about Secretariat pull up times yet you want to talk about MOW being restraine or eased. You can't have it both ways. I read the interview Baeza had and nowhere he said the Dr. would have ran it in 1:30 flat. Another one of your lies BigCY. Where else did I hear about one race the Belmont he had does not make him the best.? Hummmmmmmmmmmm
That's a fair point... Regarding the other stuff I have read the quote on Fager's mile, it was either from Baeza or Nerud, I'll try and find it for you.
As far as thinking I'm Big Cy, that's pretty funny. I'm sure Big Cy wouldn't appreciate me rating Citation #5 on my list after Count Fleet. But I suspect he wouldn't call me names, he'd just suggest I was sadly misguided.
Here's your quote, it was from Nerud. After Fager set the WR at a mile carrying 134lbs trainer Nerud saw his old jockey Ted Atkinson, who was now a state steward at Arlington, he told him, "Hell, he could have done it in thirty and change; he was six lengths within himself."
Source: Steve Haskin (2009). Dr. Fager: Thoroughbred Legends. Eclipse Press.
We all make mistakes, and you guys have corrected me when I've made them as well. My issue with you guys is your insults to anyone who doesn't agree with you.
I think Secretariat was mind-blowingly great. I just don't deify him. He might well be the best of all time and if he is that's fine -- but that's a very subjective argument with a lot of different opinions.
I love Secretariat, IMO he's one of the three or four horses that COULD be the best of all time.
Sec was beautiful, explosive, had heart, and could win from any position on any surface. To top it off his connections showed true class in everything they did.
Too bad his "fans" don't show the same class, insulting everyone who doesn't agree with them and deify the horse.
@evyn10014 Not oly ran the last furlong with the greatest of 'EASE' but the entire race. Man 0' War was 'EASED' at the end or the last 1/16 mile of his races except for the Dwyer in which he was extended and ridden hard as Joe Palmer and many more said & could only manage a suck time of 1:49 1/5. Don't we all know who is faster? Let it go. It can't hurt that bad & we will forgive you if you come clean.(smile)
You mean every top horse could run a 2:24 1 1/2 mile, a 1:57 4/5 1 1/4 mile pulling up, A 2:37 2/5 5/8 mile pulling up, a 1:59 2/5 derby. Is this what your saying? Yes,many horses could have beaten Secretariat if he was not sound or fit but tell me what horse was capable of running these times I mention you drooling fool, Thats something you can't get. Those times has never been matched. Tell me one horse that ran a 1:57 4/5 1 1/4 mile pulling up or a 2:37 2/5 5/8 PU.
Nice try fanboy. All your unofficial pulling up times don't mean a thing. Every race is unique, on different track surfaces, speeds, different factors... And workout times mean absolutely nothing.
His Derby and Preakness times aren't WR's anymore on dirt, so you can stop talking about them.
His Belmont time is epic, and may not be beaten. But one race and one remaining WR on dirt doesn't make an athlete the best over any distance for all eternity. And ANY DISTANCE? Lol. Cuckoo
Ruffian ran faster than Secretariat as a 2 year old at 6F three times, Fager faster at a mile, and Kelso would have smoked him at 2 miles. Any distance... Mmmm hmmm.
Nice try Prissy Sissy. The pulling up times don't mean a thing you say? Your telling me that he could not run it in 2:37 2/5 1 5/8 mile and its all a lie that he didn't? I got some bad news for you. MOW record is broke and replace by some other horse. Hehehe. some more bad news for ya. Secretairat's still stands. Do you know that a horse named Battie Joined ran that LR race in the same time as MOW in 1962? You post again shows the hate you have for Secretariat. congratulations.
Nope. Pulling up times, workout times, Nack's daydream times, all meaningless.
You name the races and times when Secretariat OFFICIALLY ran 6F faster than Ruffian, 1 mile faster than Fager, 1 5/8ths faster than MOW and 2 miles faster than Kelso and I'll concede he's a better horse. But you can't, because he never did.
And no, I don't think Ruffian was better than Secretariat. Making a point.
the Preakness & Derby never was world records lady. They were track records. Gee I thought you knew a little something about horse racing. Their still track records & only his Preakness has been tied. I am getting pretty tired of teaching you. I will start sending you a bill. Holy Cow now who's the 'Cuckoo'.
You make an excellent point here -- do I believe every top horse could do that? Absolutely not. But neither could Secretariat every time he raced. My point has consistently been that the top horses were so close in talent and ability that any of them could beat each other on any given day. I know you feel Sec had an extra edge over all the others, you might be right.
If I'm putting money on the various matchups, I would bet on Secretariat most times, but not all.
There has been many super horses you say? not that many I know of any said. MOW, Fager and Kelso yes a super horse but remember Baeza said Secretariat 'Super, Super' horse. Hehehe
I forgot to ask you. Do you know the name of the jockey that rode Dr. Fager? Want a hint?(smile) Hehehe
hmmmm... hmmmm... would he be the same jockey that rode Buckpasser? The name always escapes me...
Funny you should mention Fager's jockey though cause when the Doctor set the WR in the mile Bae -- I mean "he" said he had no idea they had set the record, but if he had urged the Doctor a bit more he thought he could have run it in 1:30 flat. But he didn't, so it doesn't matter.
@evyn10014 So we have Baeza who said Secretariat ran the Belmont with 'Awsome Ease', Kent Hollingsworth said he did it without raising a sweat, Pay Day said he did it with the least of encouragment, Woodie Broun said he was not tired & was really to go another 1 1/1/2 mile and Red Smith said if asked by Turcotte would have broken Fiddle Isle record of 2:23 flat on grass. This is on record. Tell me now Secretariat did not race the Belmont with the greatest of 'EASE' little ass.Cont.
@evyn10014 Baeza never said Fager was the best of all time either. Only powerful up to a 'MILE'. And you want to proclaim Fager better than Secretariat. Hell, when did you became such a great expert on horse racing and knew better than the ones that rode or seen them. You have not done either one. You must be in love with yourself.(smile)Hehehe
@evyn10014 Baeza said in a interview: Fager was one of the fastest horses alive. One of the fastest horses on the track. He could punch a hole in the wind.
as a two-year-old. Then he matured as a three-year-old.
WP: Powerful?
BB: Very powerful. Up to a mile, I don’t think there was a horse that could beat him. At that time anyway End of quote. So now the jockey who rode him did not say he was the fastest but one of the fastest. No horse could beat him up to that 'TIME'. Cont.
Fager ran 1 1/4 in 1:59 and change numerous times. He could bang heads with Secretariat at any distance up to that. Longer and of course Secretariat is going to take care of business.
Laffit Pincay Jr. raced Fager head to head.He knew how fast the Dr. was yet he proclaimed Secretariat the best. Many horses came close to his record mile and even one tied it. So we all know that record was nowhere compared to Secretariat Belmont. Secretariat show in the M.C. he could have smashed Fager record if ran from the chute not even in top form and on a track much slower than the track the Dr. ran on.
No one knows how fast MOW, Count Fleet or Citation could have won because they all won so easily as 3-year olds that they didn't have to push it to the limit.
(We all know how fast Dr. Fager could run though, and it was faster than Secretariat.)
The only winner here is Carly Kaiser. 300,000 + views of people getting all hot and bothered over dead horses that never raced. Damn Carly you should sell tix.
Here's a question that should answer the debate - which horse set records at ALL THREE of the Triple Crown races (even though the Preakness still isn't officially recognized) that still stand?
at Belmont trounced MOW by some 15 lengths..all the while, pulling up!!! I posted a similar situation about the MC. As usual, no reply form the idiot/ distorter. That is the final game played by her. simply run away and dont rely to the actual and factual scenario but, continue on to another distortion and denigration. More to follow.
It is so easy to see she is a Secrtetrariat hater the way she underscore Secretariats achivements. Its not her true opinion but is a 'Bias' & hated opinion. Why, because if MOW ran workouts and 'Pulling Up' times like Secretariat she would fly off the rocker telling about them. Even the slightest thing MOW done well she makes a mountain out of of a mole hill out of it. To her Secrtetariat T.C. races & 'Pull Up' times was nothing that special. Not even the 1:57 4/5 PU time in the M.C.
Tell me something my good man and I know you will be truthful. Have you ever read where just 'ONE' old time track horseman ever stated that has seen both that said MOW the better? Please if you have let us all know. I am very confident you cannot. The reason is just plainly because they were none out there at least not in this world. Evyn cannot so now I am asking someone that is on Secretariat side to come up with one. I have myself try to find out but come up empty.(smile)
Did you schoolboys just spend all night passing notes back and forth about me? That's so cute. While you were doing that I just had a dope ass dinner at WD-50 and we didn't talk dead horses one time. But if you're ever on your way to Belmont to put a wreath on the track for Sec head on over to Clinton Street first and get the wagyu deconstruction.
I do not know of any. It's unfortunate that, too a person, the MOW fans we "see" here are comeplte morons, unable to present COMPLETE facts, details, etc. Truth be told, MOW had to have blown the, then, horse racing world away with his fractions. I would be willing to be that some on the BH panel saw him as the standard by which future G1 horses would be compared. Decades ahead of his time. But, I stand by, through no fault of MOW's, that the change of the breed with the...
...advent of Nearco, and particularly, Nasrullah...the millions of foals dropped that produced drastically more competitive racing and large fields created a virtual sea change in TBR. The fact that so dominant a horse, produced in that competitive era, accomplished what he did is outright freakish. Look at the MC. We all know that the top horses need a rhythm of workouts and racing. A blood infection, no work for nearly 6 weeks, one decent workout prior to the race, a heavily...
You ever so correct. More foals and better breeding than one ever could imagine since MOW time. Agree MOW was ahead of his time but time caught up with him. It began with Count Fleet IMO and when Secretariat came along he was surpassed and Secretariat became the standard by which all of his likes are judged. Like Woodie Broun told Whitney Tower we probably will never see the likes of him again. And we haven't yet.
I could not agree with you more. I honestly think, that as we move forward, there is a general lack of understanding as to what Sec did e.g. the KD and the MC. The Dr. Fager / Damascus races were legendary, but the 1973 MC, I think, is at the very same level. Further, if we go with Nack and assume Sec at 80-90% "post-virus" we have Sec running 4 races in 6 weeks at 9, 12, 12, and 13 furlongs.
thinks MOW was surpassed by Count Fleet? Right... MOW ran faster than the Fleet at 1 mile, 1 3/16, and 1 1/4. The Fleet did run 1 1/2 three 10ths of a second faster though. Of course the Fleet was let to run and hurt himself in the stretch, while MOW was under a pull (still won by 20 lengths, the Fleet by 25).
Tell some more lies Booster, your head's up your ass.
But since rscarbro brings up Count Fleet... like MOW and unlike Secretariat, the Fleet went undefeated as a 3-year old.
And re: Count Fleet and MOW... Kelso had both their blood in him. No wonder he won HOY 5 times, and Arcaro considered him better than Citation, (who Arcaro apparently considered better than Secretariat).
Funny any Sec fan could talk superior breeding since MOW, since MOW is one of the greatest sires ever and largely responsible for that breeding...
Arcaro knew how fast Citation and Kelso could run so don't give the shit about no one knows how fast they could have ran. Secretariat ran just as easy has any of these horses you named Secretariat never was driven out in any of his victories. Joes Palmer himself said MOW was exteneded in the Dwyer. Was 'Ridden Hard' yer could only manage a slow time compared to Secretariat in a joke time of 1:49 1/5. Pat Day said Secretariat ran the Belmont with the least of encouragement. Cont.
By your own logic you should appreciate the fact that MOW ran the LR in WR time equally at ease as Secretariat's Belmont. Kummer didn't even carry a whip. And that time holds up against any horse you'd care to name.
The Dwyer wasn't MOW's finest hour. But it was gutsy, and he won.
Red Smith, Broun, Hollingsworth and all make statements how easy Secretariat ran the Belmont and any moron could see it for himself If they watched the race. Again we all can plainly see your a biggest Secretariat hater ever. You know how easy he won his races yet say different. You just will not tell the truth about him will you.
Braulio Baeza quote:Braulio Baeza, no stranger to these classics rode Twice a Prince and did a great job. "My horse ran better than I expected he would," said Braulio.
"But Secretariat is a super horse."
Is he Super?
Super, super horse, maybe? Count Fleet won the Belmont by 24 lengths and yesterday Secretariat looked like Count Fleet coming down the stretch, pulling away with awesome ease.End of quote. Thats right Fager jockey said with 'AWSOME EASE;.
Many does not realize just how great his M.C. victory was. It was all the things you pointed out and more.Taking the long route to a world record and the track conditions were not lightning fast as clearly pointed out by Whitney Tower. it was a track that did not fancy R.R. nor Cougar.What if that race was done on a Santa Anita track. He would had broken all world records from a mile & well beyond 'Pulling Up'. And he was no way in top form like he was in his T.C. races. Unbelievable
Sorry to hear of your dissapointment with the film...and fully expected you to be thrilled with it. Fwiw, Roger Ebert gave a very positive review. He was a buddy of Nack's back in school. I keep passing it by at the rental machine....because not a big fan of Lane. From what is known of the trainer, don't understand the choice of Malkovich as Laurin..?
I don't understand the choice of Malkivich either. I knew Roger was pals of Nack & known Elbert for yrs. We just don't have the same taste when it comes to movies. Just because I believe Secretariat was the best ever does not mean I would have liked the movie. I believe they missed so many important parts of Secretariat career. To be honest I never liked Laurin himself.
credentialed field, a very fast pace on a wet track...and Sec produces a WR, with ease under a hand ride. Freakish. In any event, I digress. I have not read of any individual who actually saw both horses state that MOW was better. As stated, it is unfortunate that his so-called fans here are beyond absurd.
The only thing absurd is comparing horses from different eras and proclaiming one to be a god above all others when at least 4 or 5 other horses have made their case to be just as good or better.
My good man, how can you actually type this stuff: I don't think Sec's TC races were special? His Belmont was only the greatest performance in the history of horse racing as I've said many times. All apologies if I'm not enough of a fan for you.
and even has a portion, that isn't turf!!! Now, we have Sec, from memory,in a 13 horse field and in the 13th position; a duel for the lead for a substantial portion of the race; on the very deep Woodbine turf, rain-soaked, thick fog, 100% humidity, falling rain mixed with snow and 40 degrees. Interesting. Now, how does that compare to a 2 horse race on a fast track at Belmont??? The true compariosn has been stated...one, as usual, that she won;t acknowledge...that Sec 1 5/8th's fraction...
...evyn makes the general claim that turf is faster than dirt, i.e. all turf tracks will produce a better time than all dirt tracks. Makes sense, yet??? The details that form the true picture are omitted because they don't suit her distortion.. She has already run away from the following facts on one other occasion. Fact is, Woodbine, at 1 5/8th's miles has produced notoriously slow times. The course is irregular and the track surface is uneven to the tune of 2 feet!!! The race has 3 turns...
That right. Her comparsion between the two is only one sided. She will not comapre both when both ran on dirt fast tracks carring the same weight. She has to go to a race were MOW times were better not even considering the track conditions or anything else. Its just a 1 5/8 mile race period with her. Its like not seeing past your own nose so to speak.To her if MOW was eased up it means he could have ran it 2 or 3 seconds faster period. Won't comment on Secretariat 'Pull Up' times. Why?
The lady in question will not compare those times because its like comparing apples to oranges in every way I don't care to waste time discussing. But you guys feel free to.
All the world records are now held on turf, hence the point of turf in general being faster than dirt. I can't type fast enough to correct you slim shady.
It's so funny what you do when you are backed into a corner. You continue to make an ASS of yourself. You are so desperate to run post SOMETHING, that you say anything. Each surface is listed separately with respect totimes so that the most moronic fan has an understanding that they are different form one another and, to even the most moronic fan, that nearly every horse runs on one surface or another. It's only the very few of the GREATS that have had true success on both surfaces.
Interesting thing about the pattern you see with evyn, BigCy, patt et al. Probably one and the same. The concept is to "speak" in terms of generalizations and/or detail that is, at the same time a withholding of key information so as to take/portray a distorted point of view. Another tactic is to speak in terms of "it is becuase I say it is" and/or proclamations i.e "would of, should of, could of". If you take Woodbine, for example. The attempt is to "compare' this race with MOW's Lawrence...
Fact: Count Fleet's jockey Longden said the Fleet could beat Secretariat. Fact: In the Interview with Arcaro on the Citation page old Eddie clearly says Citation was the best 3 year old ever. Fact: Dr. Fager's trainer Nerud said no horse ever could beat Fager in a mile race.
And these statements were all well after '73.
So lots of "experts" disagree with you. And all your hearsay and "Sec could have done this or that" doesn't mean shit.
Arcaro never said Citation was the best 3 yr. old he ever seen. He said he was the best 3 yr. old he ever 'RODE' Do you know the difference? This is what he told Christine in that interview. Need I post it again or did you ever read it. Get the head out of your ass I never said Count Fleet was better than Man 0' War. I said you started to see the better breeding first with Count Fleet. Time started catching up with MOW with the Fleet.MOW was surpassed by Secretariat not the Fleet.
I think MOW could have been surpassed by the Fleet, Citation, Fager, or Secretariat, maybe others? But I also think he might not of being surpassed at all, as I don't believe you can fairly compare horses from different generations -- A sentiment I got from Mr. Bill Nack, as he eloquently stated in the intro to Bloodhorse's top 100.
Obviously Nack felt Sec should be #1. Being a good guy, he wrote that they should have been honored with a tie, and I agree.
That is not at all what Nack said. More disinformation from the fool. What Nack said, and to be specific, was that had he known someone would vote in the manner they did (voting Sec #14) he would have placed MOW at #14 to even the field which ultimately would produce a tie. The comment had nothing to do with a belief that the horses should tie. You are nothing but a complete friggin' stupid LIAR.
My god you're sad. You accuse me of lying about Nack's statement?
Bloodhorse Top 100, page 7, column 2, top of the page: (Nack speaking of Secretariat and MOW) "One almost wishes they had finished in a tie, these two magnificent chestnuts, leaving one to represent the first half of the century and the other to stand for the second." End quote.
You need to drink your milk and get in your PJ's, I think it's past your bedtime.
At least we now have the quote. The quote is completely different from what you said. Huge differecne between "one ALMOST WISHES" and making the coment that you did. But, as always, you just cant help being a stupid retard.
lol, do you listen to yourself? I guess you must since I doubt you have many friends.
It's ironic that I live in the same town as Penny Tweedy, cause I think if she were to read the posts of the so-called "fans" of her horse on this page she might just throw up on her screen.
Keep posting and then running. Again, your lack of any originality is amusing. All you can do is get called out and then, several posts later, take what someone else said and TRY to use it yourself. Funny how you make the absurd comments that you do about say, Dr. Fager, and then, we don't hear any more about it. You cant get Woodbine straight, you can't get Dr. Fager's career straight, you cant get Nack straight in that for all your attempts you leave out the most important...
I guess my previous post is confirmed. The idiot has nothing intellectual to post. Too funny. You cant get anything straight. The name happens to Penny Chenery as the Tweedy was dropped many moons ago. As usual, whether it is important or not, you just make an idiot of yourself. I actually think that Ms. Chenery would like the fact that while you have denigrated Sec and bald-faced lied with extreme distortion...the fact that you withhold accurate information to attempt to support...
a completely warped point of view...as stated, she would like the fact that not only did Sec fans defend him, but that they did so with very detailed and factual research. Please keep posting your insane rhetoric. You seem to never tire of being the ASS that you have shown each and every time.
...and that is EXACTLY WHO NACK VOTED FOR. So...here is your challenge. Let's see if you can actually make a factual statement, with detail, well researched and without the typical distortion. Just as important, let's see if you can be original. Let's see if you fall into the same old stupidity of trying to copy what is evdident about you, only to try, in vain, to turn it aorund. My bet is that you aren't capable.
LOL...can't help yourself. Let's see you've done a 180 degree turn and made a fool of yourself. Now you express a disdain for facts and details in favor of your typical line of bullshit. By the way, make sure you keep your dental appt....for a haircut, that is!!!
That is fair to say 1.Seretariat,.a toss-up between MOW & Kelso. But MOW probably the better because he would have been much better at 4yrs. or more if he ran. There is no doubt in my mind Secretariat was the most capable of them all. I believe he proved it. If MOW, Kelso done what he did I would be jumping off the empire state building to let it be known. I am not in love with Secretariat. I like all the horses. Its just my most humble opinion. Cont.
Just what else in hell can I say. When a horse broke all 3 T.,C. races and the way he did it plus the unbelievable time in the Belmont & easing up another furlong for a 1 5/8 mile in 2:37 2/5 And coming off a serious illness and hurring up with a few workouts getting ready for the M.C. race And done that WR time And PU 1:57 4/5 for the 1 1/4 mile left me speechless. I am sorry but what else can a horse do to impress the living hell out of someone? What a 'Super' monster of a horse.
Very well put. I believe he was spectacular as well, and did things no other horse has done. And he could be the greatest ever -- but I don't place him head and shoulders above the very best of the best -- because they did things no other horse has done before as well. If I sound unimpressed by Secretariat then I've done myself a disservice because I am a fan.
Just where Count fleet fits in I am not quite sure. He never did the awsome things Secretariat, MOW and Kelso done. Only great race was the Belmont IMO. I am sure he fits in the top 10. Fager better at middle distance and not doubt The Count was stronger at long distance.There is several of them that is really hard to seperate. The top 3 of mine pick make no mistake about their athleticism, Believe it showed more than the rest of the crop expecially Secretariat.
Yep, the Fleet is an interesting question, as it's pure speculation. I rate him in my top 5 as I don't think we saw his best. He won all three TC races so easily we don't know how fast he could run. Just by what I've read I think they would have gone for records after the TC races but then he got hurt at the Belmont and they retired him. Hertz said he didn't want his champ horse racing at less than his best and I respect that.
What other horse in history ever ran each quarter faster than the previous fone or a 1 1/4 mile race & set a track record still not broken? What other horse in histroy made a move so early like he did in the Preakness & went on to set a track record that is only tied to this day? That move so early would have cooked most any great stake horses. And what can we all say about his Belmont win. Still a WR today by 1 4/5 seconds. What horse ever done anything so great in 3 straight races?
Dear Sweet Cheeks, Your continued attempts at reversal simply do not work. Are you that stupid??? How is it that you use the same, redundant, commentary in the same post??? Again, are you that stupid??? I would like to believe that it is a game; that no one could be so stupid as to embarass themself in that manner; especially over and again. Now, let's take these statements one by one. Longden's statement refers to a horse that was 20 lengths behind Sec in each of the TC races...
Dear Booster, your continued ability to miss what I'm saying is impressive. I don't think Count Fleet was better than Sec. His jockey thought he was though.
You point out the Fleet's TC times are way slower than Sec's -- absolutely, he won each in a romp. Did I say he could have beaten Sec's times? Nope, just that he could have run faster so we don't know.
Assemble a fantasy field of the best and race them 10 times at different distances and no one horse is going to sweep the races.
It is always interesting. Now, you make a comment and then completely back away from the context of the statement. Your so-called complaint in the beginning of the comment is then followed by exactly what you were complaining about. Further, You have demonstarted time and again a "could of" approach to the tune of vast distancse and times..."c'mon bro" ring a bell. With respect to Sec in the MC; an ailing horse sidelined with a blood infection for 6 weeks with one good workout...
...and not pronounced fit for the race until 72 hours prior, goes out and trounces a championship filed under a hand ride all the while, in my opinion, not looking very good physically, wide and on a wet track. Pulling up he's at 1:57 and 4 for 10 furlongs. Is it reasonable to, conservatively, give him several more lengths on a CA track, in top form? I believe so. Slight bit of difference bewteem that and your advancing horses to the tune of 5 seconds and 20 plus lengths.
Funny how you make a statement in a vain attempt to support your own point of view then, when obliterated with the facts, you reverse course and run away from said statement. Funny how nothing that you post holds up to scrutiny. so much so, that you allowed yourself to visit the land of "could of" over and over again. Funny, you made a comment that MOW "could of" run in a large field though Sec actually did, and won. Now you'll say MOW ran in large fileds at 2YO in a desperate...
attempt to save face when, in fact, MOW nver ran more than 3/4 mile at 2YO and in some cases on a straight track. We're talking 3YO here. Yet, you proclaim he "could of". Now...when pointed out in detail Sec health, etc leading to the MC, one good workout, not being proclaimed ready until 72 hours prior, WR time on a wet track, wide and under a hand ride...now when it is advanced that, conservatively, he "could of" gotten a few more lengths in good health and on a CA track you...
become the consummate hypocrite. There is an enormous difference between fanstasy to support a ridiculous point versus a conservative estimate, given details and facts. You are, likely, the most unoriginal fool I have ever had the pleasure of continually besting in debate.
I guess you've bested your own hero Bill Nack in your debate then, as he himself pointed out it's futile to compare horses from different generations.
Let's see if you can stick to the friggin' LIE you posted as to Nack's comments. Then, suggest you read what Nack said about horses from different generations. That was not his comment. He stated what old horsemen had said to him. Again,you prove yourself a LIAR and an ASS!!! At this point, I am pleaede that you have stopped posting about MOW. MOW does not need a so-called fan such as yourself. Suggest you find youtube for the retarded. you will probably be in better company.
People should read Nack's intro and judge for themselves. They'll find I described it accurately. Your ranting and raving doesn't persuade anyone of anything. Just gives people headaches.
...Eddie Arcaro said that Sec was "the fastest horse I have ever seen". As for Dr. Fager. Let's deal with the facts versus the comment. Proven on the racetrack, and even at 4YO, there was a way to beat Dr. Fager. If you look at his losses to Damascus through the use of a rabbit, in each race( 10 furlongs) the 3/4 fraction was approx 1:09 and 2/5th's. The good Dr. could not run this fraction and finish strong. That, as stated, is a fact. Sec showed that regardless of ailing health at...
Fager's weakness was his unwillingness to be rated, not a lack of endurance (at least up to 1 1/4). He ran 1 1/4 under 2:00 multiple times.
Secretariat had better race sense than Fager and could be rated masterfully. Hence if you'll note I said I thought Fager would do well against Secretariat in either a match race or a race with no rabbits up to 1 1/4.
Even with a rabbit Fager would do fine in a mile race as he showed when setting his WR with Hedevar in the field.
You are a complete ASS as well as a complete LIAR. Again, are you really that STUPID??? Fact, Dr. Fager could not hold a 3/4 fraction in what Sec could and finish. Do you not get it??? Are you so full of shit that you cant even grasp facts. Sec running a 3/4 fraction under complete control in the 1:09 range would make it so Dr. Fager could not finish strong. Try as you might, you cannot distort the truth. God, you are beyond stupid!!!
...furlongs or up to 12 furlongs he could not only handle that fraction, he could finish in WR time under a hand ride. Funny, I actually fell sorry for you in that you continue to make a complete ASS of yourself. The only thing I can figure is that there is some sort of limitation to your thought processes with regard to information assessment to continue to make such utterly stupid statements. Congratulations!!!
Secretariat won all three races. Watch the '73 Belmont. That's all you need to know. Only Secretariat was referred to as "a tremendous machine." Man O' Who?
It's called an opinion. Your opinion is that Sec was the best. Mine is that MOW was -- and as I've stated, I feel any of the top 5 or so have made a case for being the best of all time.
The difference is, I'm cool with you guys feeling it's Sec. Doesn't offend me, or make me want to call you an idiot or a bitch.
I feel the very best were hairs apart from each other -- you feel Sec was head and shoulders above the rest. I don't need to justify my opinion and neither do you.
It is very peculiar that every old time track horseman on record stated that Secretariat was better that seen both. I wonder why is that & none is nowhere to be found who said MOW was better. Hummm. And prissy Evyn cries her eyes out saying there is but just cannot produce any names but Bowen was sure there was some but even that guy who laped up every bit of information he could find on MOW could not come up or even remember or produce one himself. Not even Ours. Kind of odd wouldn't you say.
Hah nice writing. "I write a fuck of a lot better than you..." Hahahahaha.
MOW didn't come first. Racing had been around for hundreds of years before him. Racing's first TC winner came before him, as did undefeated Colin and many others.
If it was about who was first another would have been on the cover. It was about who's best, so MOW is.
@evyn10014 Please little girl make a comment about Secretariat 'EASED' another furlong in the Belmont clocked in 2:37 2/5 passing the 1 5/8 pole. Was that unbelievable? What would be your comment if MOW or any horse in history done that on dirt? Its got you lock-jawed has it not. Are you to ashamed to answer it with dignity? If Kelso done that I am sure you would make a big deal of it but not Secretariat. Your the one that is 'Bias' than hell. What about that 1:57 4/5 PU a whole furlong in M.C.?
2:37 2/5 'Pulling Up' vs. MOW 2:40 4/5 not pulling up a whole furlong is beating him by 17 lengths. So lets not give MOW 2 more lengths here my good man. (smile) Unbelievable Secretariat beats MOW 1 5/8 distance by 17 lengths 'Pulling Up'. WOW another world record by just easing another full furlong and they want to talk about MOW being 'EASED' in his races. It is so very laughable to even think about it. MOW fans don't want to talk about that race but want go to muddy Woodbine.
FYI gang. I know that most of you already know that evyn ,BigCY aka little pussy are one and the same. She took the bait. I caught BigCy and his anti-Sec bs over at a Spec Bid video. Same old attack and denigration garbage. But, like I said, she took the bait and immediately comment here on what I had said at the Bid video. What kind of complete moron goes on youtube under different names and writes in virtually the same style of lies and bs. Too funny.
lol MOW crushed Paul Jones easily when he raced him. You're slandering MOW with your imagination that he couldn't win in traffic is funny cause you have no idea what he could do.
MOW was a fast starter, he would break in front of the competition in a big field and wear them out as they tried to chase him cause he had great endurance... C'mon 'bro you know this.
You have not the slightest clue why Secretariat was held back in most of his races don't you. It was because of what happen in his first race. A slow starter can't run a 33 2/5 3/8 mile and a world record at the time in is workout before his 3 yr. old season.Turcotte could have started him fast or slow. Whatever he felt was best for the race expecially when a lot of horses were entered. MOW could have ran anywhere he wanted too but never could get to the line faster than Secretariat.
I made another terrible mistake. Secretariat ran that 3/8 mile workout in 32 3/5 seconds as a 2 yr. old. Still a 33 2/5 seconds was never approached by MOW.
Still playing would of should of and especailly COULD OF. The horse didn't do it, i.e. run in large fields so, to siut, your argument, you simply state that he could. That unsupported comment has no place in a debate. Most important, the one time he ran a 1:09 fraction at 6 furlongs...HE DIED..both MOW and JPG ran the last 3/8th's mile at a 26 and 2/5th second pace. Dorothy Ours said MOW's ribs were heaving like a bellows after this race. Tell me, how much weight did JPG carry...
Now we'll contract the Dwyer with the 1973 Marlboro Cup. We've got Sec, Riva Ridge (Hall of Fame, 1971 and 1973 Eclipse Award, KD and Belmont; Key To The Mint, 1972 Eclipse Award; Kennedy Road, 4 Canadian Championships; Cougar ii, 1972 Turf Champion) FOUR horses run the 3/4 fraction in 1:09 and change on a wet track. Sec (not looking good physically and his first race after his virus, never fully recovered, breaks clear and wins under a hande ride; WR at 1:45 and 2/5ths...
@evyn10014...that time is nearly 20 lenghts faster than MOW and while still recovedring from illness. Riva Ridge ran roughly 1:46 and Cougar ii 1:46 and 1/5th. It is quite possible that the entire field, that day, ran a faster 9 furlongs than MOW did in the Dwyer. Level of competition - CASE CLOSED!!!
And finally, accusing me of being someone else is the ULTIMATE IRONY considering you three trolls all say exactly the same thing make the same spelling/grammatical errors and all respond at the same time. Laugh Out Loud.
The Woodbine track was muddy up to your ass lady. Turcotte & Hatton told about those bad racing conditions. Its in the Daily Racing Manual. Still you cannot tell me if you have the Newspaper where it said MOW broke a record in his workout. I did not know you knew more than Arcaro. You said you will take his word for it when he said Secretariat was better than CY & Kelso. Yet you of all people say Kelso was best & you never seen him ran. You gotta be mentally insane. No kidding.
You want the newspaper from 1920? Really? Tell you what, you produce Arcaro to set the record straight on who he felt was the best and I'll give you the newspaper.
Where in the world did you get that I think Kelso's the best? I seem to have put a list on here a while back...
1) MOW
2) Kelso
3) tie: Dr. Fager and Secretariat
4) Count Fleet
5) Citation
That's my personal OPINION, but I could be totally wrong about that... The Doctor could be #2 and Kelso tied with Sec at #3.
Charles Hatton had been the dean of American turf writers fopr decades before the rise of Secretariat & has seen them all since the era when MOW and Sir Barton struttled their stuff on the racing stage; in the end he declared Secretariat to be the most capable racehorse he had ever seen. You lady never seen none of them race & you declare MOW, Fager, CY & MOW better. Do you really know how stupid you are in all due respect?
After the passage of over 2 decades since his death at Claiborne Farms, is that Secretariat continues to be viewed as the modern standard against which all members of his tribe is judged. Not MOW, CY. Kelso, Swaps, the Bid or any other. Secretariat stands alone. .
You damm right they were hacks. Neither them ever seen Man 0' War. One voted Secretariat 14 best. Now you know why they were hacks. And why they were asked to vote & not the old time horseman who has seen both. Tell me that.How about most all that seen both ran said Secretariat the best. No, they were not hacks. They surely had the best jdugment. Does common sense tell you that? Bllodhorse knew what the out come would have been hands down for Secretariat if they voted.
You're looney. Every person on the Bloodhorse panel is a longtime turf writer. You talk bias? No one is more biased than Chenery family biographer Bill Nack. If anyone shouldn't have been on that panel it was him.
MOW and Sec got the same number of #1 votes, MOW got one more #2 vote because someone as crazy as you voted Sec #14 (you would have voted MOW #14).
They should have gotten a tie, as your friend Nack said himself in the intro.
Fager, The Bid & Slew would not make my top 3. MOW & Kelso ahead of them because of their stamina. I am smart enough to know that MOW was not 14th best. Much better than that but smart enough to know like all the old time horseman who has seen both said that Secretariat was better.Smart enough to know that MOW loss to Upset was a fluke but not dumb as you that believe Secretariat losses were not flukes. Nack did not vote MOW 14th it was one of the Citation sucks. Cont.
I'm aware Nack didn't vote MOW #14. He voted him #2. What Nack said is, if he'd have known one of the panelists was going to vote Secretariat #14 he would have voted MOW #14 to cancel it out.
And I also know which panelist voted Sec #14 -- which of course was crazy. But I already answered that in another post long ago.
I agree with you on the Bid and Slew but I think Fager was a monster talent and deserved to be in the top 3 or 4... Everyone knows you're smart, but you get nasty when people don't agree with you, no matter how polite they are. Makes no sense.
Seems to me your doing a pretty good job of being nasty yourself. I guess I care about it about as much as you care about MOW. Slew was not as fast as The Bid or The Dr.
all were monsters. some better monsters at different distance. None of these 3 were monsters at long distances. Secretariat, MOW and Kelso were. Between MOW & Kelso who's the better I am not sure but Secretariat seperated himself from MOW & Kelso at long distance with the win in the Belmont. Hirsch said that himself.
Well 'bro sometimes it's hard to be civil when someone accuses you of being a fool or an ass or a liar for quoting something straight out of Bloodhorse or the DRF. Sometimes I riled up.
That's a fine post about MOW/Kelso/Sec. Take Fager out and you have the list I put up a while back, which I'm guessing you would reorder a bit 1) Sec 2) MOW 3) Kelso. Hard to argue with that.
If only more people felt as strongly about today's horses as we do, the game would be in better shape.
I am not smart. I do not like people bragging on me with all due respect. There are a few things in life I believe I have a very good grasp on but nothing to bragg about whether it is good .No doubt MOW was one of a kind and way ahead of himself in time. I truly believe the breeding much improved since his times and with some many horses foaled since that. We all know now the breeding is not like it used to be. You learn with age. You mature with age. Always been told that now I know.
That right one of BigCy sucks not Nack who voted him #14th. You have not told me if you think the old time Horseman who has seen both would have been a better judge than the panelist that were selected. Why no comment there. You know I am right and your the one 'BIAS'.
I'm absolutely biased toward MOW. We're all biased toward our favorites. And I don't doubt the old-timers who saw both and felt Secretariat was better. More power to them. Doesn't mean that I agree, or that I think I know more than them. On the contrary I'm a rookie in the sport compared to their knowledge.
Look back to my original posts, I said if Sec and MOW raced on modern tracks I believe it would be very close at every distance. I've also stated many times I could be wrong...
You mean to tell me that you cannot type in Eddie Arcaro 'the master' is dead at 81 and read that article by L.A. Times Bill Christine in which Eddie Arcaro said he rated Secretariat the best he ever seen.? Your telling me that article does not exist? Were can I go to read that article that MOW broke that record in a workout? You can't give it to me can you? Its a make-up story like MOW had nightmares for 2 wks. after his loss to Upset. You can never produce any proof but talk.
btw, in my own words: It's reported that Lucien knew about the abscess BEFORE Secretariat ran and lost with it and decided to run anyway -- any trainer knows if his horse hasn't eaten. That, Secretariat having a fever later, or not being properly trained, all UNACCEPTABLE excuses.
If your horse is on the track your horse is ready to race. Or don't race them.
All the greats had to overcome obstacles. Class doesn't make excuses.
Not done yet with rscarbro/bmblebee/schumann impersonations...
You IDIOTS Kelso ran 6F just as fast as Secretariat as a 3 YEAR OLD!!! And ran 1 5/8ths FASTER and set the WR at 2 MILES KELSO was BETTER than Secretariat. FAGER was BETTER he set the WR for the mile on dirt that has only been equaled and ran 1 1/4 faster as a 4 with Weight for Age you LYING MORON BITCHES living in a FANTASY WORLD.
continuing on with my rscarbro-triplets impersonation: MOW set records in workouts and those STUPID LYING Secretariat IDIOTS won't believe what's in NEWSPAPERS the STUPIDEST ASSES on youtube. Man o War never even allowed to run except ONE race the LAWRENCE when he ran faster than Secretariat did on TURF! Then they say the Turf was knee deep and Sec SWAM his way to the Finish. LIARS and IDIOTS you BITCHES.
rschumann, bbmtge, rscarbro100 (all the same person or clones) here's my response to you -- written like you write people so you'll understand.
You're an ASS full of LIES!!! Man o War TRIPPED at the start of the DWYER and still won he would have gone UNDEFEATED if not for COLLUSION in ONE RACE by the JOCKEY. ALL 2 YEAR OLDS run SHORTER distances you ASSES what kind of IDIOT says otherwise???
Secretariat lost to NOBODIES and his cronies make EXCUSES you're IDIOTS and LIARS and BITCHES!!!
All you do is prove you have no class. And worse, you don't care that you have no class.
Secretariat's Derby time will be broken, as will his Preakness time. Both have essentially been equaled.
His Belmont time may well hold up as most horses can't handle distance these days.
I will say there is about a 0% chance another horse will come along and break all three records in capturing the TC. Little versatility and durability in the breed these days.
Here we go again. So simple minded it;s absurd. Sec ran the Preakness with such ease. Turcotte said he could have pulled away from Sham at any time, but he had to think of the Belmont. Only one other horse, officially ran under 2 minutes and barely so. Sham probably ran the 2nd fastest KD. Sec was wide for close to half the Preakness and for 3/4 of the KD. The horse that beat Sec 9 fulrong record was 4 YO and carrying 10 fewer pounds. I guerss you just cant help yourself with the...
Ahhh... Right. Turcotte said he could have pulled away anytime. Kind of like when Big Cy pointed out that Arcaro let the wraps out on Citation you or one of your cronies called b.s. I love how you argue against the very things you say. PRICELESS.
You continue to cmeent your reputation as one who simply bald faced lies. how many names do you have oon youtube??? Actually, bitch, you ARE Big CY et al. THAT'S what is truly priceless. I have caught oyu in so many lies that you have to run from video to video. Now that you have been found out, I'm going to make it my mission to let everyone on youtube know who you really are, BITCH!!! BTW..Arcaro said Sec was the fastest horse he'd ever seen.
Aw, thanks for comparing me to Big Cy, he's got class. All his posts are well reasoned and stated, and without the constant insults, grammatical errors and ranting and raving you've mastered so well.
You and BigCY are the same person, bitch. Cant you read??? Get it yet??? As stated, you have been caught in so many lies it's pathetic, bitch. But, keep posting. Your stupidity is entertaining.
In the Lawrence, MOW ran the 4th quarter in 25 2/5th's...the fifth quarter in 25 2/5th's...the 6th quarter in 25 flat...the final furlong was run in 12 seconds falt...a 24 second pace...yet the fanatics want you to believe he was eased and try to give absurd explanations as to how. The fractions state that, for some reason, MOW was moving faster at the end of the race than in the previous 3 quarters.
So many comments on here from bright people who love the sport and have class -- among them Big Cy, duckworth, and even some of the Sec fans...
then there's bbmtge and rscarbro. They're like the bratty little kids no one wanted to play with, so they just yell louder and louder and try to get attention by calling everyone names. ZERO CLASS.
The kids will mark this as spam but you all know who it is and you all know what they're about. They don't belong at the grown-ups table.
You just call me a idiot and you say I have no class. Like I said look at you ownself in the mirror if you got one. Probably can't stand to look at your own face besides anyone else. You & CY are probably one & the same. Both of you write post the same. Are you twins? Same old garbage & lies with both of you.Both of you cannot except Eddy Arcaro statement that Secretariat was better than Citation and the best horse he ever seen. Live with it. He said it was so.
You're right I did call you that, because I gave you the source for something and you said it didn't exist and I was lying. That's not cool my friend. But I'm sorry for that. Better?
As far as Big CY, I respect his opinions and share some of them, but we have quite different opinions. I believe MOW/Sec/Fager and Kelso are the very best. He'd rate Citation higher I'd say...
One thing Big Cy and I share tho is the belief that any of the best could beat each other on any given day.
@evyn10014 Excellent job of putting things into perspective ( where is the class ?) For ex, what you just said is considered to be rubbish by all the good 'science' worked out here. Sec has PROVEN with science how much slower MOW was - and is now elevated to FACT @! ..Falling second to Fager or Kelso
- is taken as a BIG lying slap in the face to Sec - just look at his time in workouts.
They have PROVEN that Sec stands alone. And we have proved NOTHING ! (Disgrace)
Yeah, I still like ol Sec though as you pointed out he had excellent manners, and a lot of class. It's a big burden for people to consider you immortal -- he was probably pretty happy to retire and chill with the mares.
Or you point out the source and article for a record MOW achieved in a workout:
Source: The Sun and The New York Herald, September 3, 1920. "Man o' War Breaks Record in Workout."
1920, Two days before the 13-furlong Lawrence (1 5/8th's) MOW did 12-furlongs with WORKOUT RIDER Clyde Gordon carrying 130 lbs, and ran 2:29 2/5 under STEADY RESTRAINT, setting a new American Record.
And some complete idiot (rscarbro) says it doesn't exist.
Were did you find that information from the N.Y. Hearld on Sept. 30, 1920? Have you got the newspaper from 1920? Did you go to a website or read in a book that he did?. Its awful funny that piece of information is nowhere to be found. Every source that I give it is easy to find, So what if he did run a workout in 2:29 2/5. Thats nothing to compare to Secretariat record breaking workouts. I made a terrible mistake. Secretariat 'Pull Up' time in the Belmont for 1 5/8 mile was 2:37 2/5.
It's cited in Ours book, which is praised as a meticulously researched book. Just cause you haven't heard it doesn't mean it didn't exist.
Like I said, you're not gonna convince me, I'm not gonna convince you... But see I'm cool with that. Secretariat was a great horse and if you think he's the best that's fine. He might be.
I have an issue with your rudeness. Not your appreciation of Sec, or your general racing knowledge.
Say it doesn't exist that Secretariat ran a 1 5/8 mile 'Pulling Up' in 2:37 2/5. That 3 2/5 faster than MOW time and done it without rasing a sweat. No comparison. Secretariat the faster horse.Say it does no exist that 45 yr. veteran of the DRF Charles Hatton said the tracks of 1973 perhaps only 'ONE' second faster than 1920. Tell me it don't exist Secretariat ran 1 1/8 mile in 1:45 2/5 taking the long route almost 4 seconds faster than MOW ridden hard in the Dwyer. You lose.
Or you point out facts straight from the DRF and you get marked as "spam."
MOW ran faster than Count Fleet (Bloodhorse #5) at 1 mile, 1 3/16 and 1 1/4; > than Citation (BH #3) at 1 mile, 1 1/16, & 1 3/16, > Kelso (BH #4) at 1 1/4 + same time at 1 5/8 with MOW restrained at end; > than Seattle Slew (BH #9) at 1 1/2, The Bid (BH #10) at 1 1/4, and faster than Secretariat (BH #2) at 1 5/8ths.
No class whatsoever on this page from Secretariat's fans. You point out a fact, like how one of them reverses himself:
I quote RSCHUMANN from 2 months ago: "It's safe to say that both Sec and MOW were the two greatest thoroughbreds of all time and of any nation. Each one contributed something unique to this great sport of horse racing."
(then later Schumann was talking about all the other horses that were better than MOW, laughable)
MOW ran faster than Count Fleet (Bloodhorse #5) at 1 mile, 1 3/16 and 1 1/4; > than Citation (BH #3) at 1 mile, 1 1/16, & 1 3/16, > Kelso (BH #4) at 1 1/4 + same time at 1 5/8 with MOW restrained at end; > than Seattle Slew (BH #9) at 1 1/2, The Bid (BH #10) at 1 1/4, and faster than Secretariat (BH #2) at 1 5/8ths.
Dear Alzheimers, I already answered you: 1920, Two days before the 13-furlong Lawrence (1 5/8th's) MOW did 12-furlongs with WORKOUT RIDER Clyde Gordon carrying 130 lbs, and ran 2:29 2/5 under STEADY RESTRAINT, setting a new American Record.
Source: The Sun and The New York Herald, September 3, 1920. Article titled: "Man o' War Breaks Record in Workout."
Sam Riddle would not let a horse run a 1 1/2 mile workout 2 days before a 1 5/8 mile race. He was so protected of him he would not run him in the Derby and how in the hell can a horse be restrained at the end when he ran his last quarter faster than the previous one. Thats like saying Secretariat was restrained every quarter in his Derby win were in fact he ran every quarter faster than the previous ones. How old are you anyway? Can't you understand logic? Cont.
It's simple, and Ours book breaks down all the splits meticulously: the quarter before the last in the Lawrence Kummer let MOW take a major breather, then the last quarter he picked it back up -- and as you pointed out he cooked it in an amazing time for such a long race -- but he was eased off at the very end, still achieving a better quarter than the one before.
Am I saying he could have run it faster? Absolutely. Dramatically faster? No, I'm not saying that.
I love it. Slowed down, sped up and whjile runing a faster quarter...slowed down. MOW final furlong was run in 12 seconds. The 1/4 pace was, thus, a full second faster than the previous, yet the horse was slowing down. No sense at all. The notion you are fowarding is that, while in complete control of the race, Kummer decided to ask the horse to perform erratically. While you will deny this, as usual, if the horse did what you claim, that is exaclty what would have happened.
Mr. bbmtge, what's so incredulous about rating a horse in a long race, then letting the wraps out, then easing off at the very end? That would explain the fractions.
However, even if he wasn't eased, he still ran his final fraction in an ungodly time, and set a record that it took horses like the great Swaps and Kelso to match. So what's your point? His time at 1 5/8ths is unbelievable. Adjust a second for the track (as you yourself have pointed out) -- even more unreal.
The 12 second final furlong is impressive as are his 3 races in 3 weeks. My point has to do with the constant claims of being eased or under stout restraint. As far as the one second adjustment, you have the wrong guy.
That's not what the fractions reflect. Can you not do any research appropriately??? His fraction were steady for 3/4 of a mile and then he ran faster over the final furlong.
Quibble over red herrings if you want. MOW's time at 1 5/8ths was world class even now on dirt, and that was in 1920 on a slow track.
You say he raced in the most non competitive time in racing? Yet his DRF verified times at 1 3/16ths, 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 (set with ease) would win most of the last 10 years worth of Triple Crowns.
Most of the fans of MOW and other horses give Sec respect... Not sure why you can't do the same for MOW. He was the class of the breed, just like Secretariat.
Actually, if you ever bothered to read the posts here, the average MOW fan argues like a petty child and shows no respect to Sec. Did MOW rin in a noncompetetive era? Yes. The fact that the horses he ran against carried pathetic weight AND produced pathetic times proves that point. Are his fractions fantastic? Yes. But, as you have never acknowledged this point, to run primarily match races against horses that have no chance cannot compare the the modern era
I've defended Secretariat many times and have stated clearly I believe he's one of the very best.
Where we differ is that I believe the top horses are extremely close, and could have gone back and forth on any given day.
If I've been guilty of being argumentative, it's that I find it humorous that people such as yourself call other people "fools" "bitches" "asses" and worse, while touting how brilliant they are while making speculative arguments.
I also stated in another post that if MOW ran in the 70's, he would have lost more, just like Secretariat, due to greater competition, etc, but that in my opinion he would have excelled anyway just as Secretariat did. He ran in full races as a 2-year old and was undefeated there but for a fluke. He would have excelled in loaded fields as well -- all the greats did.
So obviously I acknowledge the statements you're making.
I'm all for a good discussion. But trading insults gets old.
You complete foolishness never ceases to amaze me. MOW did not run in full races as a 2YO. First and foremost, he never ran more than 6 furlongs. GET IT, YET???
At 3YO...MOW averaged 1 1/2 opponents. You are the biggest ASS on youtube. You, BigCY et al and whatever other names you come here under. 5/8th's of a mile and straight compared to 13 horses at 1 1/4 or 1 5/8th's miles makes you a complete ASS. You have been caught in so many LIES it's pathetic. Now you go back to playing "would of, should of, could of". More bullshit, more LIES.
Further , the energy expenditure of the large field and Sec rynning wide in racves where he is actually running further than the actula race distance e.g KD is something MOW NEVER encountered. Finally, take the '73 MC where 4 horses run a 1:09 and change fraction. Sec...WIDE...sets a WR under a hand ride with RR at 1:46 and Cougar ii at 1:46 and 1/5th. MOW never hade to deal with this, either.
Nack also mention that on Belmont day the track was slowing by 4/5 of a second. It was slowing down a week before the Belmont. Secretariat faced more competiton than Fager ever seen. No horse has ever beaten R.R. 1 3/16 mile record. That record still stand clear of any time. Fager mile has been tied. Yet Secretariat unoffically ran a 1 3/16 mile in the M.C. about 1:51 2/5 'Pulling Up' beating R.R. by over 3 lengths. We all know how fast that Peagsus was don't we?
If Secretariat ran a 2:28 4/5 1 1/2 mile like MOW did in the Lawerence no doubt he would had no problem at all running better than a 12 flat last furlong. Please remember lady that Secretariat ran a unoffical 1 5/8 pulling up in 2:37 2/5. Can't you understand logic. Image what his time for the 1 5/8 mile would have been if not pulled up. Would you at least say 2:36 & small change? What do ya say lady with some common sense of course. MOW would be 20 lengths behind or more.Cont.
Lets give MOW the benifit of the doubt. We know Secretariat was completely pullled up for one furlong in the Belmont. Lets say MOW was too and yet gfve MOW another 2 full seconds. Thats a 2:38 4/5 seconds time still 1 2/5 slower than Secretariat. And the all know Secretariat could have ran that 1 5/8 in 1:36 & small change if not pulled up and the know MOW was not pulled up for a whole furlong like Secretariat was. What else can we give you lady? Can you sink that into your brain?
2 other points...pt MOW in the modern era in a medium to large filed with horses who can compete with him and those fractions you refer to flat doisappear. Also, he never ran on a compromised track. At 3 YO, all track were fast, wiht one rated good. One sloppy at 2 YO. Very slow time and short distance. Sec ran in mud at 2 and 3 and destroyed veteran and older turf champions twice.
3 points to your 2 points. 1) MOW ran in full fields as a 2 year old and dominated -- also often carrying heavier weights than Sec carried as a 3. So his ability to win in a group is proven. 2) Sec's best race, the Belmont, was essentially a match race as well. 3) It's documented, MOW at the Potomac Handicap, the track was deep and cupped and so unstable Riddle considered pulling the colt -- and they gave him 138 lbs. But he carried it like a champ and won.
And finally, Sec ran against better competition, but his margin at the Belmont meant no other horse did better than I believe a 2:30 on a lightning fast track -- not much competition there.
You never saw Affirmed dust Alydar by 31, or Fager mop the floor with Damascus by double digits...
When horses completely outclass the competition you get a blowout: ie MOW, Secretariat in the Belmont, Count Fleet demo'd all three TC races (25 length win in Belmont).
Secretariat Belmont was not a lightning fast track. The true variant was .09. As you know yourself Russel Cardenas explained the DRF error and Andy Beyer used a .09 variant in his speed figure. Also Cardenas said Twice a Prince & My Gallant times were about 2:28 2/5. Thats faster than MOW times at 1 1/2 mile carring 8 lbs more. So don't say these horses were chumps.Get your stop watch out & start it when Big Red hits the wire & stop it when Twice a Prince hits his wire. Cont.
It's a documented fact my man, I didn't make it up. Take it up with the newspapers that reported it. Once MOW did that any other owners who were considering the race promptly pulled their entries, so Riddle's friends entered a "barn pony" so the fans wouldn't howl.
Jeffords made Riddle promise MOW wouldn't embarrass her colt but instead MOW torched the track, won by 100 lengths just for the hell of it, and set a WR.
That's a horse -- like Secretariat -- that loved to run.
And you are calling me Atzheimers. Take a look in the mirror. There is nowhere in Man o' War biographies, or Ours and Bowen books ever mention that so call 1 1/2 mile American record he suppose to have set 2 days before the Lawerence race.No doubt it would have been written in both of their books if it happen I believe the longest workout Man 0' War ever had was a 1 1/8 mile not quite sure. What offical time would Secretariat time would have been if that Belmont was a 1 5/8 mile race?
Pointed out the source multiple times to you and everyone on here.
You should concentrate more on polite discourse instead of insults and people might enjoy talking with you. You have a lot of knowledge about racing and make a lot of great points which I've complimented you on in the past, but you just can't behave yourself like a normal person. It's a shame.
(now you'll say what's a shame is that blah blah blah and insult me... you can't help yourself)
We already know Secretariat ran that 1 5/8 mile 'Pulling Up the last furlong in 2:37 3/5. What does that tell you idiot? You can't comapre their 1 5/8 mile races because of different track conditions and Eddie Maple was riding him as well. He never tried for any speed record or let him run his own race like Turcotte did in the Belmont but Secretariat in that 5 furlong workout was the fastest at that track any horseman ever could remember.
It's the same garbage Riddle tried before the the Dwyer, saying MOW set a miole record in a workoput. Dorothy Ours falt stated it didn't happen. You are so full of shit, it's pathetic.
So you're calling a well-respected writer and researcher a liar, when she's cited her sources... Wow. I guess you really do live in an alternate universe.
It's getting late in the real world so I'm going to have to put this scintillating conversation to bed.
If you're going to compare their races compare the Belmont and the Lawrence. Neither had any competition, both set WR's and both were allowed to run. Secretariat had his best performance and so did MOW. DRF states MOW was eased at the end, DRF states Secretariat was Ridden Out.
A hand ride in both "races," with neither jockey using a whip. Kummer didn't even carry one.
In the Belmont sec ran faster than MOW at 1 1/2 and in the Lawrence ran faster than Sec at 1 5/8ths.
I quote RSCHUMANN from 2 months ago: "It's safe to say that both Sec and MOW were the two greatest thoroughbreds of all time and of any nation. Each one contributed something unique to this great sport of horse racing."
Gang...I guarantee this bitch is either evyn, diana or Big CY. She has to come in under different names and spew the same old illogical bullshit. This is really getting funny. What a little bitch. Let 's she if she answers the questions put to her.
This little bitch is the same as all of the other MOW fans to a name. The basic pattern is to 1) say "it is because I say it is" 2) regardless of other horses,plural, much faster fractions; they say MOW "could of" run faster to the tune of 15 - 30 lengths 3) MOW never ran, he galloped or cantered...funny how the DRF and the racing fractions in several race completely contradict this 4) simply do not answer questions with logic.
"this little bitch?" u should think about what u say. u just make it clear youre a loser. you calling someone a bitch about a horse... get a life little man
Correct "bitch". A bitch does what you do. Proclamations and false statements. No facts. So...let's see if you can answer the questions I put to you. Need them repeated or do you want to continue with the aforementioned PROCLAMATIONS??? WHAT'S IT GOING TO BE???
lol lil internet bully with no life you wind up like a clock and cant stop... no one doesnt like secretariat hes just a horse they just dont like u. write more flikker we love the show! I=l
lol thats some first rate detective work, u a stalker? have lived in london, u? but am not from uk. would never say am from states. a few good cities throw the rest in the ocean.
It is very clear that Secretariat had the stamina like no other. Going that super fast pace for a 1 1/2 mile. Running thoses kind of fractions & slowing down hardly none to speak off. All experts thought he would collaspe in the strecth. Thats why they were speechless plus when he hit the teletimer in 2:24 flat on dirt in which no horse in history never done within 1 4/5 seconds on a dirt track & at the time by 2 3/5 seconds. Done it without rasing a sweat so said Kent Hollingsworth.
KELSO better in every way, do it all on any track any conditions and better endurance, would have run secretariat in the ground, 2 mile WR 5 times horse of the year. secretariat retire to make money in the barn before he keep losing to no names.
I guess you know more than Eddie Arcaro the man that rode Kelso. Just another post proving how dumb you are. Read Bill Chrisitne article titled Eddie Arcaro The Master is dead at 81. You got no case at all. We know who was best because Eddie told us so. Go & swallow, shit or whatever with that statement of Arcaro. Is people going to believe your opinion or Eddie's? Your a complete joke.
When Secretariat gained that 2 seconds on MOW in just a 1/4 mile tells you MOW was tiring a little & Secretariat was just getting started. Remember MOW was ridden hard & never ran such fractions as he did in the Dwyer race. MOW was slowing so much Kummer had to crack the whip to his ass to pull away from Grier in the final moments of the race. He was still losing time to Secretariat real fast who had a 1 1/2 mile race. After 1 1/2 miles Secretariat still not tired according to Woodie Broun.
kummer didnt even carry a whip when man o war set WR at 1 5/8 in lawrence (faster than secretariat ran 1 5/8 on turf) and his fractions picked up, so saying mow have no endurance is stupid. do the math and you might find 1 5/8 longer than 1 1/2...
Your a complete dumbass. As we already told you the condition of that Woodbne track. It is well documented. It is very easy to understand if Secretariat was running on a fast track at Belmont & was clocked 'Pulling Up' another furlong passing the 1 5/8 post in 2:37 3/5 is miles ahead of MOW's time running the 1 5/8 from the shute & not 'Pulling Up'. If that don't tell you Secretariat is faster then you know no 'MATH' & have no common sense at all. Cont.
You tell me what other horse in history that would need a whip in his Lawerence race? You need not to go further than to look at the only horse he raced against. Or was Hoodwink a donkey?
By the time Secretariat went through the 1 1/8 post he was there in 1:46 2/5. MOW just finishing his Dwyer race with the crack of the who finished it in 1:49 1/5. Now Secretariat was 2 4/5 seconds ahead of MOW & still had a long way to go. With Secreatriat running with ease & never a whip taken to his ass & no horse to pressure him was still walking away from MOW by lengths who was running for his life away from Grier. It tells a story that Secretariat was the 'Tremendous Machine".
Everyone knows MOW was ridden hard in the Dwyer and everyone knows Secretariat was just hand ridden in his Belmont racing only against himself nothing else to urge him on. As Pat Day said with the least of encouragement. The fastest fractions ever done by MOW was in the Dwyer race. He was ahead of Secretariat at the 1/2 post by 1/5 of a sec. & ahead of him by 1/5 at the 3/4 pole. At the mile post Secretariat was 1 4/5 seconds ahead of MOW. In 1/4 mile Secretariat made up 2 sec. on him. Cont.
I could not have said to better myself my good man. These people are unreal to even mention Sea the Stars & Ribot with the likes of Secretariat. Its like comparing Pee Wee Herman to King Kong. These idiots are all amongst us. It never fails to amaze me the dumbasses we have in this world. I truly believe they live in a insane asylum & somehow got to a computer. There is no way else that I can explain it.
My daughter bought me the Secretariat movie. It sucked. One of the worst movies I had ever seen. What a joke. What a injustice to the greatest thoroughbred to ever blaze a track. There should have been a documentary about him done some yrs. ago when some of the old time track horseman were still around. Eddy Arcaro would have been a good one to do it. He would have left no doubt what this horse was made of & the true things of the whole matter. The CY & Kelso fans would be weeping.
Tell me just one old time horseman who has seen both that said MOW was better than Secretariat on record theotherdoutzen. I bet you can't but know you sure you can made-up some names with absolutely no proof at all. Thats the norm for you & other MOW fans. One of your good buddies said MOW carried weights oin his legs. I guess you believe that too. I can name 7 of them that said Secretariat the better. You know shit, the experts that seen both knows and never was asked to vote.
MOW ran only 3 times carring over 126 as a 3 yr. ld. Ran a mile at 135 lbs. in a donkey time of 1:41 3/5. 129 lbs in the Travers in 2:01 4/5 beating Upset by 2 1/2 lengths. Beat Wildar in the Potomac carring 138 lbs by only 1 1/2 length in a donkey time fo 1:44 3/5.. What does that prove? He was the greatest of all time. His world records carring 126 lbs were nowhere to Secretariat times and Secretariat ran them with just as much 'EASE' as MOW at about the same weight.
man o war win his races in a gallop eased up, just workouts. set world records in gallops. all easy. secretariat have to fight to win the derby and preakness, no comparison.
Yes, truly amazing. Again, I take nothing away from MOW. People must have been amazed at his fractions. They have stood the test of time; he us probabvly the first, true, G1 thoroughbred. However...when you run the small field (average number of opponents at 3YO was 1 1/2), run whatever line you want, against horses who have no chance then...you are completely removed from the dynamic that was in the decades to follow as to uniform competition in the setting of the larger field.
You need a review of basic logic. "If some, then all", especially the ones you want to pick is beyond flawed. There is zero logic to your attempt at making a point. Try, again.
youre naive. owners like winning. r u in penny's inner circle? no. you have no idea. and plenty of drugs dont risk fertility one is lasix. u all act like u know the owners of these horses, funny cause u have no idea just how much drugs are in every sport. lol.
what NFL playerz on drugs? many. basketball? lots. tour de france? doping everywhere. horse racing -- lots of drugs.
u even know what lasix is for without looking it up? youre livin in a disney fairy tale.
A very good point. Those Europeans are pretty much like the MOW fans. The all are jealous of him and never comment on those amazing workouts or have no knowledge of them. When he walked around the dogs in some of his workouts they were faster than MOW. He left all the veteran horseman shaking their heads in disbelief. Most stake horse would fragment 'fall apart' if they ran workouts like he did so said the experts. Not many trainers dare not to run their horses that fast
right, as a 'european' I can assure no european jealous of secretariat lmfao... triple crown in us means nothing to europe they have the most prestigious races in the world... the derby, 2000 guineas, l'arc de triomphe... americans dont even know champions like ribot and sea the stars exist in your little disneyland
Can't help but say Secretariat superseded Man of War, because of the 31 lengths in his final race....and no one will ever repeat his time or margin of win.
wtf? you get that was his final race by disney? wasnt his final race and he got beaten fair and square by prove out after, other horses have won races by bigger margins, belmont aint the only race or even most important race, 1 1/2 times faster by lots of horses.
In the winter of 1972 at Hialeah Park Turcotte hopped aboard Secretariat weight 141 lbs with heavy boots and all. He clicked around the track running just a fluid as any weight he ever carried. The MOW fans want to talk about Man 0' War carrying so much weight which in fact when he did carried much less weight by 8 lbs he still could not run nowhere near the times of Secretariat. Totally a non-factor. They got nothing left to prove MOW was better but claiming he took drugs which is a lie.
U such a clown nice try!!!! u dont know anything about training listen up all racehorses ridden by workout riders that weigh more than race-fit jockies. man o war carried his weights in the only place it matter the race. lmfao
u wanna talk weight mow fager forego damascus you name it so many horses prove it secretrait never prove anything with weight
His weight never matter when it came to world records. Never set one over 126 lbs. He only set an American or track record carring a few lbs. more & when he carried 138 for a very short distance of a 1 1/16 mile his time was a joke compared to what Secretariat and many horses ran for that distance. If you know anything extra weight does not slow a good class horse down if the track is fast. Only on soft or off tracks going long distance. The handicappers can tell you that. Cont.
You make a mountain out of a mole hill talking abourt carring extra weight. Its a no brainer when it comes to top notch class horses.Thats something your to dumb to know. Just like the Slew fans when Exceller beat him in the JGC. That track was like a lake. Why, because the ground below it was so hard it could not take any more water thus a quick track. Secretariat ran his unbelievable times in 'MUD' Prove Out beat a horse that did not train for 2 wks. for a 1 1/2 mile. race
My main man...I do not recall MOW coming within 3 seconds of Prove Out at 1 1/2 miles. It's Prove Out by 15 in an actual race versus a walkover!!! Keep up the great work!!!
you prove your stupidity with every comment ---> compare prove outs time running flat out to man o warz time when he wuz eased off an won in a gallop?
Man 0' war ran the next to last furlong in the Lawerence in just over 12.5 seconds and ran the last furlong in 12 flat and your telling me he was eased off in a gallop at the end.. What planet did you come from. Another error by the DRF in which Russel Cardenas clearly pointed out in his article Man 0' War vs. Secretariat revisted. Again you are a complete duimbass. I'm still laughing in the floor over this one.
Funny, Prove Out was running in stride with no "rubber legs". If you think that MOW was eased to the tune of 15 lengths...now that is funny. You have absolutely no argument. other than to put out flase claims.
OK. Now we'll get into specifics to see if you'll continue to play dodgeball as you have refused to answer points with anything other than generalizations and false claims. Let's take the 9 furlong Dwyer...tell me the 3/4 fraction...then tell me the time over the final 3/8th's of a mile. We'll start with this.
Here we go again..."all racehorses" train with heavy weight. What source are you citing and what horses are you citing. As always, more proclamations.
LOL u expose yourself u never been to a track and seen how they train do u?
workout riders hardly ever actual race jockey, new jockies or old and they ride with more weight on purpose u dont know anything not out of a book this is no big secret
I actually worked at a track, fool. Now answer the question. Cite your source. If you don't have a source, then name when and where you saw this, if you did. Do you still not understand logic, sources, etc??? Do you still not understand the difference between verifiable and ridiculous proclamation. You cant back up anything that you have written. How can you be that stupid???
It is so funny how you canot, logically, substantiate ANYTHING that you write. In your fantsay world, MOW runs as fast as you want him to, as fast as you SAY he could run. That is how you avoid logical debate. Now, again , for the THIRD TIME, let's break down, form the general to the detail(s)...WHAT WAS THE TIME OF THE FINAL 3/8th's MILE IN THE DWYER COMPARED TO THE 3/4 FRACTION??? STOP AVOIDING FACTS, BITCH!!!
Further, who cares what you beleive. Now, you, quite belatedly cite your "source"as your own eyes. So, where and who did you see run in training with 140 pounds???
Careful who you call a fool cause now you look like one. Not sure what doutzen means by "heavy weight" but race horses ROUTINELY workout with HEAVIER weights.
You want sources? Steve Haskin (2009). Dr. Fager: Thoroughbred Legends:
"Weighing more than 150 pounds, Marrero (WORKOUT RIDER) provided enough weight to keep the Doc's works under control... Through the deluge (RAIN), Fager breezed his five furlongs in :59 under no pressure at all from Marrero...
I'n now convinced that you are bipolar. 2 points here; with respect to BH 100, if you want to be so invested in a vote, feel free. I could care less where the horses are placed in a vote, especially by a s-called panel that does not qualify their votes. If you want to believe in "appeals to so-called higher authority", again, feel free. I believe in exhaustive research and a horse's performances...this is where you have been shot down every time.
This is too funny. You are so deperate, as well as stupid, that you are posting agaisnt posts that I never replied to. Now you are defaulting to the general, as wlasy, and taking a statement that Haskin made and assigning is to ALL RACEHORSES. The stupidity of your bullshit is always entertaining. You are so desperate that you'll say anything to attempt a reversal. Funny how you can't stay on topic, routinely LIE and switch back and forth from horse to horse. Dr. Fager was a phenom..
I replied to a response you made to a friend about horses not carrying heavier weights in workouts, which they often do. You called it a lie and wanted a source. I gave you one. End of story.
Okay...so we have the bipolar and ADD issues. Now, your level of stupidity enters another realm. I NEVER made a comment that horse(s) did not carry extra weight in workouts. Are you really to the point that you cant even friggin' READ??? The comment asked the reader to source their comment THAT ALL HORSES WORKED OUT WITH HEAVIER WEIGHT. GET IT???!!! That perosn never replied. You reply with a well-known comment by Haskin. My Lord, your stupidity knows absolutely no bounds!!!
Gee, it's the bipolar, ADD idiot. You've lost at every turn, you can't even accurately read commentary, you bald-face LIE, you don't know the specifics of tracks, you make claims about horses that are false. Now we see the suptidity oozing through, again. You LIED about my comments, LIED again and now you are so lost that you have to stick with a LYING though process. And when you are bested, all you can do is retreat to a 4 year old mindset with the drivel you just posted. LOLOLOL
...but DR. Fager never accompished, at 3YO, what Sec did. Damascus doesn't even come close. Please feel proud of finding a quote that does not relate to anything I've ever said.LOL. Keep it coming, asshole.
Careful who you call a fool cause now you look like one. Not sure what doutzen means by "heavy weight" but race horses ROUTINELY workout with HEAVIER weights.
Steve Haskin (2009). Dr. Fager: Thoroughbred Legends: "Weighing more than 150 pounds, Marrero (WORKOUT RIDER) provided enough weight to keep the Doc's works under control... Through the deluge (RAIN), Fager breezed his five furlongs in :59 under no pressure at all from Marrero...
Look, the idiot is back. As stated, I worked at a trotter/pace track and a flat track...when it was called Laurel Race Track. Further, a boyhood friend of mine was an exercise boy and 2 jockeys live in my development. Further, they all knew Chris McCarron when he raced at Laurel. The point is that excerice boys vary widely in weight. You continue to make a comeplte ASS of yourself in that Dr. Fager and damscus were weight carriers at 4 YO....
Nice try. YOU are the one making a claim about being ON drugs. The notion of "prove you are not", again, is zero sum logic. You are no more than a total ASS.
March 29, 1973 a day before Secretariat was a 3 yr. old was 'JOGGED' around Aqueduct with Turcotte aboard with a total weight of 130 lbs. going the wrong way around for the mile in 1:35 2/5 & "eased" another furlong in 1:48 flat. Source: Teddy Cox DRF. Plainly put Secretariat could run over 1 second faster than MOW going the wrong way just "JOGGING' carring 130 lbs than MOW could going all out in the Dwyer in 1:49 1/5 carring 126 lbs. Weight was a non-factor with Peagsus.
It never fails my good man. All the MOW fans see after they lose the argument make the claim Secretariat was on drugs. They absolutely cannot come up with any facts at all that he did take them. Why, because they are none. They also say he stumble in the Dwyer and no one seen it because of the trees. Now thats a good one. We are dealing with 'KIDS' here crying like babies over their GOD Man 0' War with lies. Its hard telling what they will come up with next.
drugs n faster tracks and lower weights for secretariat n man o war still the better horse, he run fractions just as fast before reigned in. you comparing a drugged up athlete to a natural one your a fool. its not the horses fault its jus the game
That 32 3/5 was a record by 2/5 of a second at the time and one 1/4 split was done in 21 1/5. Thats 2 seconds off the world record. Secretariat was still a 2 yr. old at the time & still growing.. You will never hear any MOW fans telling you this. If MOW done that they would be jumping off the empire state building telling about it. Watson the official clocker in the tower clocked him with the teletimer in 32 3/5 as well. 44 4/5 seconds pulling up for the half mile. WOW
"Oh my God," was Laurin's alarming reaction when he checked his own split-second watch that actually showed the colt going a second slower at both posts. The corps of clockers on hand, however, insisted that their watches all recorded the same time. The trial at first had Laurin visibly irritated but after Secretariat cooled out in normal style and ate his 11 a.m. lunch without missing an oat, the personable French-Canadian trainer relaxed. Cont.
Honed razor sharp by a sensational three-eighths in :32 3/5 and pronounced "better than ever," by a confident but somewhat nervous Lucien Laurin, Secretariat, launches his 1973 campaign here Saturday..Secretariat was limbered up by a series of gallops, then Wednesday morning he electrified railbrids and clockers with a phenomenal trial that found him sizzling three-eighths in :32 3/5, after which he was eased a half in :44 4/5. Cont.
Your so correct my good man. You tell the truth. They are facts. I like to mention to the MOW fans when MOW ran the Dwyer fast track he was ridden hard & drew away with a crack from the whip, Fractions were 46, 1:09.3/5, 1:36 & finished with a slow time of 1:49 1/5. Secretariat much faster in 'MUD' in a workout not ridden hard. He was not urged to go faster at all like MOW had to be to beat Grier with that crack from the whip on a fast track. Absolutely no camparison. Secretariat faster.
I trust the the impeccable rscarbro and rcschumann are doing well!!! I further trust that evyn and company, same person???, are posting the same tired crap.
final furlong was at a 24 second pace per quarter. The previous 2 quarters were run at a bit over 25 seconds each. Again, an impressive fraction, but....he was not eased to produce that time.
2:37 and change. Thus, with respect to MOW 1 5/8th's race...same track, same surface. Finally, for those who say that MOW was eased in his 1 5/8th's race, the official time contradicts that. In his final furlong, he was running at about a one second per 1/4 pace than the previous 2 quarters...actually, quite impressive.
FYI...Sec 1/58th race was at Woodbine. That track is irregularly shaped and the surface uneven. Some folks think that grass is automatically faster than dirt. Woodbine is a notoriously slow track made that much slower, in Sec race, by it being soaked AND by the fact that the humidity was 100%, thick fog, a mixture of snow and rain and roughly 40 degrees. From memory, Sec was in the furthest (13th??) post position. The better comparison is Sec Belmont as, pulling up, he ran...
Your are right my good man. I have mention this many times and of course the MOW fans never did. They just tell what they want you to hear. They all know Secretariat is the better but never in their life they will. Sore losers and no nothing about horse racing. They love to hear tall tales about MOW and take them for the gospel. Sad but true.
man o war the top horse of the xperts nothing to be sore about if your a fan. secretariat people talk more about cuz of a disney movie but real fanz know whats up
Why would one be sore after 7 panelist of none who ever seen Man 0' War can call him best. Tell me about that one. Your sore because Secretariat could run faster than MOW could ever do. The experts were the ones that seen them both run. Seeing is believing and no fairly tles about it. Name me one who has seen both said MOW was better. Good luck and no make up any names please. I'm to smart for that good buddy,
why wuz secretariat so inconsistent after the belmont? obvious same reason other endurance atheltes are inconsitent its called drugs people you peak for some races not others
man o war carry more weight at 1 5/8ths race than secretariat and run faster. when did secretariat carry 138 pds on a shitty track?never
JOKERS man o war carry 130 pds 6 times as a 2yr old secretariat never carry a pound over 126 as a 3yr old what a joke compare these two man o war better in every way he never have an off day or get sick or have any excuses he just win and win and win and WIN
man o war carry 126 for 1 5/8ths in the Lawrence and his record never beaten just equaled he carry 138 in the potomac handicap on a track u wouldn't race a donkey on.
The track was rated as "FAST" when MOW ran in the Potomac. Where is your source that track was not fit to run a donkey on? Its all made up stories. A very short 1 1/16 mile race And MOW could not run it nowhere near a 1:40 iin which Dr, Fager could have ran in 139 flat carring only 4 lbs less than MOW. Give me a break. Quit living in a dream world.
70s the golden age of steroids and most drugs not illegal in horseracing did u know that? steroids not even illegal in most races today and not in the 70s and lasix. secretrait and other horses not tested for many drugs just a few.
man o war never take a drug didnt need them was all natural to compare is a laugh you put him against any horse in any time under equal conditions and he break their heart and soul secretariat cry like a baby if he meet man o war on the track
secretariat fans clownz talk about weight? man o war carry more weight as a 2 year old than secretrait carry in his whole career, man o war never defeated as a three year old, secretariats last races he lose more than he win wuz on the decline, secretariat race on the best tracks man o war race on old tracks, secretariat race in age of drugs that werent even envented when man o war race.
You got that right my good man. Almost 5 sec. carring 8 lbs more. Did you also know out of the 11 races MOW ran as a 3 yr. old 6 of them races he ran against "ONE' horse each race. Absolutely no competition to even speak of. Holly Hudges made the statement when he beat Sir Baton that Sir Barton was already wash-up sore hoofs and all. No doubt MOW was ahead of his time but who did he beat? Right, nobody. I might add Sir Barton was the "ONLY odler horse he ever ran against.
The MOW fans just love to talk about those so called heavy weights he carried but always fail to mention those light weights he also carried when he broke records. Why is that I wonder. Are they trying to hide something & think we do not know that. Thats right, Secretariat ran that 1 1/2 mile carring 8 lbs more than MOW when he set his 1 1/2 mile record and those MOW fans better not forget it. They get mad at me when I mention it. (smile) The CY fans do too when I mention Eddie.
Count fleet trainer said Count Fleet would beat secretariat's ass does that mean he could have? who cares what arcaro said did he ever ride secretariat no he just watch him from the stands like anyone else and i bet in private he say Kelso could have whipped secretariat too especially at distance. kelso run 6F same speed as secretariat as a 3 and set 2 mile World Record so whose more versatile huh hmmmm? Kelso that's who, 5 TIME HOY
Your full of shit and must be Evyn here again because you all say the same thing. What you saying is no one watching from the stands can judge a horse but only jockies who ride them. What a joke.What else do you expect a jockey to say for his own horse but not Arcaro. He was not bias. He told it like it was. He told Christine Secretariat better than Kelso. Who was he scared of when he told him that. He had no ties to any horse.You can't stand the truth of the matter.
ha you must be shumman cuz you say the same thing --> secretariats trainer said ruffian would beat him you clownz -- oh but he wuz just being nice right --> just like arcaro wuz just being polite u should try it maybe??
If your were smart enough about what he said you would also know he retracted that statement. Laurin knew Ruffian could not have carried Secretariat water bucket and you know it as well. Your were not even born when Secretariat ran. I was 25 & knew most what all the experts said about him. They told me he ran the Belmont with so much ease they were speechless and that he was better than Man 0' War. They need not have to tell me that I could see most of that myself.Cont.
A horse like Secretariat who came off a very serious illiness even before the Whitney stakes and had only 2 wks. of training with just 4 workouts yet broke a world record with ease taking the long route & was timed another furlong passing the 1 1/4 post in 1:57 4/5 tells more about his greatness than the Belmont race.. It is not a fairly tale. It was well documented. Andy Beyer quoted he was not in top form like he was in his T.C. races. Cont.
Secretariat on 28 July on a 'Sloppy Track" ran a mile workout in fractions of 45 2/5, 1:09 1/5, 1:21 3/5 And 1:34 flat for the mile. He was not finished. He galloped out another furlong for the 1 1/8 mile in 1:47 4/5 another record at Saratoga. MOW could only manage a 1:49 4/5 on a fast track at Belmont ridden hard to edge out Grier. That Belmont he ran on was rated as one of the fastest tracks in the country at that time. Belmont was redone in 1919. Cont.
Secretariat fast workout in 'MUD' July 28th was faster fractions than his Belmont race on a fast track. Source Steve Haskins. Not only that he was carring that virus then. So please don't tell me he could not have ran the Belmont race much faster. None of his workouts ever hurt him and thats what a trainer looks for is not to work them to hard. Secretariat never missed an oat after his workouts meaning they did not hurt him in no way. He done them with 'EASE'.How about that?
man o war wuz at a gallop when he win the jockey club he could have easily run faster everyone knows, secretariat run any faster in the belmont and his heart blow up from all the drugs hez on
man o war never take a drug in his life maybe they have aspirn back then how many drugs wuz secretariat on you in a fantasy world thinking none he probably on a pharmacy
Hey asshole give us the proof he took drugs. When you lose you resort to him taking drugs. Were is the proof dumb ass? Thats right you got nothing. Hoiw in the hell you know MOW was in a gallop in the Jockey Cub race? Secretariat ran the Belmont without raising a sweat. Not my words but the words of Kent Hollingsworth Bloodhorse editor and many more. Red Smith said he could have broken the world record if asked by Turcotte. That was less than 2:23 flat. You no nothing but shit.
you a lil naive kid if you think any of them racehorses "clean" its jus like any other endurance sport the drugs ahead of the tests you have no idea. nfl tested for drugs hahahah you think 350 pounds run 4.5 40s without drugs you crazy. tour de france every one of them riders doping, horses no different.
you livin in a fantasy disney world call me anything u want doesnt change the facts. drugged athletes inconsistent, secretrait great in one racethen get smoked in another. obvious
u and your so and so said this who cares? count fleet's trainer seen them both and said count fleet could beat secretrait, secretariats own trainer said ruffian could have beaten secretariat its all talk talk talk.
if secretariat run any faster in the belmont his heart blow up like a grenade or he bow a tendon or who knowz what esle then he doesnt even finish the race and ol penny go bankrupt with no breeding stop believing in fairy tales.
jus cuz youre the president of the dead horse fan club doesn't mean anyones gotta prove anything to you. you just a lil kid cryin cuz everyone doesnt love your favorite pet.
We must also mention the weight MOW carried in his record breaking mile & 1 1/2 mile race since you never will hear it from Evyn or any other MOW fan. You got it right. A light 118 lbs for both those records. And we must make a point that when MOW carried that 138 lbs. in the Potomac running a 1 1/16 mile in 1:44.4 that Dr. Fager ran another furlong in his record breaking mile & was clocked 1:44 & change passing the 1 1/8 pole carring just 4 lbs less than MOW.Cont.
Mr. Schumann I know the weight Man o' War carried in every race he ever entered, the huge weights he conceded to his competition, the conditions on every track, the historical settings, you name it. What would you like to know about Man o' War I'd be happy to educate you.
But thank you for jumping on my Dr. Fager bandwagon, I believe it was me who turned you on to that fine horse who may just be the best of all time (see previous conversations).
I'm a huge fan of the Bid but I think the Doctor had the best single season ever as a 4-year old. HOY, champion handicap, sprinter, and co-champion grass (doubly amazing cause he hated grass), plus setting a blazing mile record which I believe still stands today on dirt, having only been equaled.
Not to take anything away from the Bid, that horse could do it all.
Affirmed: amazing horse but Fager had to deal with Damascus and Damascus > Alydar.
The Bid could not do it all. He never was a great long distance horse. Lost 2 of 2 1 1/2 mile races. Delp even said he probably was not a 1 1/2 miler. He did not have the stamina like other great horses. The 1:57 4/5 on a super fast Santa Anita track that is slightly downhill as a 4 year old was matched by 3 year old Secretariat 'Pulling Up' in the M.C.. Far as the safety pin goes Delp said at the barn after the race he had not excuses for the loss. Why did he change his mind later?
Yup, I was referring to his ability to win as a front runner or make a late charge. Don't know about the safety pin... that's an interesting point. Count Fleet had an injured hoof for the KD but still took care of business.
Love the Bid. If only for a safety pin we would have had another TC winner. And easily at that.
But when it comes to the top 5 I think it's pretty tough to crack that list -- it's just what order you put them in. Secretariat, MOW, Kelso, Fager, and (BigCy will hate me for this) I'd put Count Fleet ahead of Citation.
I'd find it very hard to put the Bid, Affirmed, or Slew in Kelso's league though. That horse did it all at every distance with every weight in all conditions.
I read an article on ESPN where Kenny Mayne was talking about the decline of horse racing and why that is.
It seems simple to me: While athletes in other sports keep getting bigger/faster/stronger/better and shattering old records, it's the opposite in horse racing.
The horses of today don't measure up to the greats of days past. Every year we wait for another Secretariat, or even an Affirmed, but instead we get shadows of the breed's former greatness.
huh? where you get htis crap? MOw in the money every single race. his ONE loss if the race even half a furlong longer he would ahve won that too the stupid starter let them go when he wuz turned around at the net -- they didn't have gates back them. he should have been undefeated.
and mow carry more weight as a 2 year old than secretariat ever carry as a 3 year old. no comparison btwn these horses secretariat was A top horse mow wuz THE top horse.
re: your comment to the question to me, you probably know what Eddie Arcaro said when he was asked to compare Citation and Kelso, having ridden both, the master said "Kelso would have kicked the shit out of Citation."
How Citation is ranked above Kelso in bloodhorse is beyond me. Now whether Kelso was better than Sec is a matter of opinion. As a 3-year old? No way. But taking his incredible career... I don't know. I may be wrong about MOW all this time. Kelso might be the GOAT.
Your right about Kelso. Eddie thought Kelso was better than Citation. I also believe Kelso was better than CY. But as we know Eddy said more than once the man that rode them both that Secretariat was better than both of them. That is my opinion as well and if it wasn't how could I argue with Arcaro a man that knew more than all of us put together. Its about simple as that. Arcaro knew all the old time track experts in his days. All told him that seen both Secretariat better than MOW.
Bloodhorse should have never picked those 7 panelist to vote who was best. If Secretariat would have won it would not have been fair to MOW or any of the other horses that they did not ever seen run. Why did they not let the old time track horseman vote who seen most of all the ones on the top 100 list? They had much more knowledge and it would have been a different ranking for sure. Whether they would have been100% correct? NO, but I believe it would have been much better.
I couldn't agree more that the bloodhorse list is highly questionable at times... I think they have the top 10 about right but I disagree with the order. To me Sec MOW Fager and Kelso are the best horses ever.
Everyone has their biases though. Count Fleet's trainer thought he could beat any horse that ever ran...
Fans of either horse will never convince each other than one is better than the other, but one thing is for certain:
If either of them raced today, barring injuries, they would win every race they entered. They were so much better than the horses of today it's almost mind-boggling.
I was referring to the comment on how you measure horses' greatness. It's very slanted in the racing community toward those that show brilliance at an early age. But horses like Fager and Kelso were just as impressive in my opinion, and are both underrated I think.
Sec spectacular confirmation must surely capture fans - but not only did he look good standing still, but his smooth harmonious way of running was impressive as well. Everyone saw that especially in the Belmont.
Probably most would agree that Secretariat is the most majestic confirmation among TB's.His head was nice as well but I think the best looking head on a racehorse is Citation. It is 'chiseled' in spectacular fashion. I mean, it looked like he was carved out of Elgin marble. From the Parthenon perhaps...
"you aint gonna win that argument with secretariat. man o war he wins races in every kind of track condition with weights no horse in the70's or now ever face. Citation was more versatile and so wuz kelso. Seattle slew he won the belmont knee deep in the mud in a romp. Lot of horses have versatility not just secretariat."
I believe Kelso tied MOW's record at 1 5/8's and set the WR at 2 miles. I'd say both Kelso and MOW were monsters at distance as well. Especially Kelso.
I don't think Secretariat ever ran 2 miles (nor did MOW).
If MOW and Secretariat raced in the 70's under equal terms/weights as 3 year olds I think it would have gone back and forth like Fager and Damascus. They were both dominating and great and determined to win.
Which was better is a speculation no one can ever prove or disprove.
I disagree. If MOW raced in the 70's he never would have carried that weight as a 2 or 3 year old. No horse did anymore. MOW was also devastating at every distance.
If MOW had raced in the 70's he still would have won. He would have gotten beaten occasionally like Secretariat did, but he still would have won. And because of + competition he would have had much faster times. He would have stepped it up to win. That's what the great ones do.
Secretariat had many great races. But his Belmont was immortal. Take away Belmont and there are a lot of contenders right there with him.
All the top horses had races where they either had to make a bold move to win, where they came from behind, or races where they just flat out blew the doors off everyone and didn't fade. That's what top horses do. They find ways to win when lesser horses can't.
Zenyatta also did progressive negative splits in a race only slightly shorter.
I think Secretariat's win on grass in I think his last race was one of his most impressive wins, considering the conditions. He still set a TR on wet grass.
Not my convo but I have to comment... "Not just some racing journals..." You mean the most prestigious racing journals edited by the top experts in racing? Bloodhorse and Daily Racing Form?
Hah. Time, Newsweek, Sports Illustrated -- he was on the cover of those because of his popularity with people at the time. MOW was on the cover of the "little" racing journals because the top experts consider him the best of all time. Period.
you aint gonna win that argument with secretariat. man o war he wins races in every kind of track condition with weights no horse in the70's or now ever face. Citation was more versatile and so wuz kelso. Seattle slew he won the belmont knee deep in the mud in a romp. Lot of horses have versatility not just secretariat.
people act like horse racing just started in man o warz day but it was around for hundreds of years before. The best horses back then would win today just look at the track times. It's a dumb comparison any way there dead and they can't race to find out anyway.
But Secretariat would be afraid of Man o War that horse was tough and mean.
Good point. Funny no response to that from the secretariat/justin bieber groupies out there. All they can do is cite quotes from some 80 year old who said this or that or a jockey watching a race from the stands making a comment about a horse he'd never even ridden. LOL.
I don't think it would have been an ass-whippin either way.
In a fantasy world it would be the greatest race in history -- and I think it'd be very close. The front runner MOW vs. the blazing kick of Secretariat...
(And yes I think MOW could run 1.5 in 2:24 on a modern track with competition)
They might have both hurt themselves trying to win, in all honesty.
man o war was the alpha horse, secretariat look that tiger in the eye and he would have gotten broken like all them other horses and never been the same horse again
Both are beautiful. Horse racing, maybe because animals are so innocent compared to us, makes me cry. Sometimes I wish they'd end it when I hear they have to put them to sleep. If Man O'War was held back at the gate, that should be taken into consideration, but the record of Secretariat is amazing with 2 triple crown undefeated records, there was a glitch in the timing of the preakness, we will never know. But he won, by 31 lengths, the Belmont? But lived just she of 19yrs Man O'War 30yrs
Man O' War-just look at the pictures. He carries himself in a regal manner that Secretariat does not have. The one race he lost, he lost by a head, after he was held in the gate by the attendant due to conspiracy. Let's not forget that Man O' War ran with weight in the high 130s-before the handicapping regulations of Secretariat's day (and while making track records). He would've won the Derby (and Triple Crown) if his owner had entered him. Man O' War is the original, and only, Big Red.
A friend directed me here, said to read the comment posts. Said I'd find groups of name calling adults behaving like braying pubescents, bolstering their self-esteems by lashing out edlessly at each other about the relative merits of a couple of dead horses, animals that sported pea-size brains, whose only ability in life was to run mindlessly in a circle, and whose bodily remains were consumed by maggots that eat the dead decades ago. With all due respect, he might have called it right.
~ secretariat is the greatest horse to ever live. ~ and im not gonna say WAS the greatest horse, because no horse can touch him so he IS the greatest horse to ever live
it's really hard to compare the two, with more than 50 years between them so many improvements have been made to racing.....they are both legends (MOW and Sec), Kelso also a fabulous horse, but in a completely different league. I want another triple crown winner :)
It wasn't very hard for the old time veteran horseman to compare who was best who has seen both my good man. 43 yr. veteran DRF Charles Hatton said the track perhaps 1 second faster, Kent Hollingsworth Bloodhorse editor said training had not changed much at all, aluminum shoes does not make a horse go faster according to a man who made & sold them. So where are the big improvements? I tell you the biggest improvement. It was in the 'BREEDING'.
How do you figure Kelso was in a different league? In what way? When you're talking about the top five horses or so of all time, the difference is millimeters.
Check out the DRF and you'll find Kelso ran very competitive times as a 3 yr old as Secretariat, tied MOW's 1 5/8's record, and set a WR at 2 miles which neither MOW or Sec ever ran, and Kelso the 5 time horse of the year.
Kelso was amazing. Dr. Fager neck and neck with Sec/Mow and Kelso as well.
I see "Yoko Ono" is up to the same old stuff. Let's see...meds today??? BTW...is there, available, a med(s) for irrational state of mind, general stupidity, "could of" syndrome, "proclamation" syndrome and a thick, brown gelatinous discharge???
bbmtge 10 months ago
With regard to Penny Chenery....any of you guys ever worry about the term 'brown noses'...?
Duckworth17 10 months ago
I don't, do you? You must be talking about the MOW & CY lovers.I tell it like it is. If any other horse done what Secretariat did he probably be my horse. I judge who is the best not being bias to any horse, person or thing. The truth is the truth with no lies. Secretariat was floored by Charles Hatton. I was also. Not only of the way he looked but the incredible things he done. The same was with Arcaro who was not bias to CY or Kelso. He was no 'Bown Noser'.
rscarbro100 in reply to Duckworth17 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Some of you guys have met Ms Chenery....and that can explain hysteria on the thread. For ex, when Evyn says, "don't get too over-excited about any of it..." It's just not the norm. So, you guys must be worrying yourselves what someone 'else' thinks or similar. That someone, must be her.
Some kinda crush or something ....?
Duckworth17 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
But more likely the judge would have them admitted to a insane asylum. I can see why he would do that no doubt. Their damage control is so bad they have to tell tall tales & when asked to prove it they totally ignore the question. They say themselves they are 'Bias'. Hell, they need not to tell us that. We already know.
They also know they are on the other end of a losing debate & trying to hold on saying anything. How sad but true.
rscarbro100 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 10 months ago
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Author withheld
These idiots don't even know the difference from the best horse ever rode & the best horse ever seen. Arcaro told Turcotte plain but Secretariat was the fastest & best SOB he ever seen no ifs or butts about it. . Nack reported him saying that. Christine told about it in is interview with him yet those MOW, & CY lovers want to deny it. They totally refuse to accept that. Their case would be thrown out in a court of law the 1st day laughing at them going out the door. Cont.
rscarbro100 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 10 months ago
I see it's the same old conversation over here... Eddie this, Hatton that, Nack... Listen, one thing, just no more Nack quotes... Ever. Good guy, but he's more in love with Sec than you guys are and that's a tough feat.
So anyhow as soon as y'all come up with some new material I'll come back and check on you three railbirds. I'm guessing you'll still be here exchanging messages back and forth about how darn pretty Secretariat was. And he was a looker, that one. Precious.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Not only that my good man he also had a coughing virus in that race as well. They know it yet never mention that. He was was not trained for the Man 0' War race or the Woodbine like he was in his T.C. races either. Never mention that either. He was trained to perfection so he could win the T.C. When he was fit like that no horse could touch his ass. Only 4 workouts after 6 wks of sickness still not top form yet W.R. set & 1:574/5 pulling up. Not top form yet better than all ever.
rscarbro100 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Apologies for all the posts. I've said my peace. Look at the very first comments on this page -- lots of love for both horses. That's the way it should be.
evyn10014 10 months ago
If you think a horse knows about winning a race then I know for sure you are totally insane. I would be ashame & tell it here to everyone. I guess you think these horses will got to heaven & race up there. Maybe the pet rats & sankes will be there with them. Yes you are a idiot & proved it. I would CY. MOW & The Fleet make up over 4 seconds on Secretariat & even more because Secretariat more than capable of running it much faster? No old time track horseman will agree with you.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
No. No horse knows anything about "a race" in human terms. But what they know about is being the leader of the pack, and that's what being in front equates to.
No horse knows "the finish line." That's why they take so long to run out and pull up. But when they're going they definitely know who's in front and who's not -- and they definitely want to be in front.
A racehorse will run itself to death if allowed trying to "win" "be the leader" however you want to call it.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
In other words if a horse is rated no matter what a jocky does he will not slow down if a horse is in front of him. No way of controlling him yet the jockey pulls him up fairly easy after the finish line. Never heard anything so stupid in my entire life.Slew 103 never gave me the ass. I kicked his asss all over the place & he went and hide.You still have not told me how they would make-up over 4 sec. on Big Red. Is it by going all out? Right, they would falter in the strecth. Not BR.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Oh man, you told me you had time on horses so I took you at your word. Look, it's simple. Every horse can be rated during a race -- how much varies on the horse. Some a little, some a lot.
Now when they cross the finish line Jockeys do this thing that let's the horse know the fat lady has sung -- they stand up and pull back on those reins. Now from the thousands of times the horse has practiced on the track, they know what that means. Elementary.
Goodness you give me a headache.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
One other thing rscarbro... so you think it's easy to pull up a hell-bent horse in the middle of a race?
Ask Vasquez how easy it was to pull Ruffian up after she broke her leg and still tried to keep running, smashing her bones into the ground. It took him forever to get her stopped cause Foolish Pleasure was bounding away and she wanted to whup his ass. Oh, you don't think they want to win/lead/dominate? Wow.
(no disrespect to Ruffian, love that horse, making a point).
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Ruffian was hurt & confused not beacuse of she wanted to kick FP ass. Your so dumb its unbelievable. Go to school & learn something. Common sesnse school that is.If a jockey cannot slow or speed up his horse then he does not know anything about riding a horse. He can slow down a horse during the race just like he can when he finis ha race. Stand higher in the saddle & that will not give him the bit. Dr. Fager ran many different paces during his races.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
It is very simple that Big Red was not all out in the Belmont when his fractions were slower than his workouts in 'MUD'. His fractions were slower than his M.C. race. Ronnie could have sped him up even more as Red Smith pointed out in his article from the swift. The reason he was not tired after the race was doing it without raising a sweat as Kent Hollingsworth had stated as well as many others is because he was not all out. He was galloping along with 'EASE'. Awsome ease. Hehehe
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Whats was the deal with MOW? Kummer seen not to have any trouble easing MOW last 1/16 fo a mile or have him restraint or strong hold. Was he a super strong jockey or was MOW a pussy & Fager a much sronger horse to hold back? How about it 'Sissy'.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
You've gotta stop thinking of horses as cars. Every one of them behaves differently.
MOW and Secretariat both did what their jockeys asked, every time. That's what you want. The opposite of that would be Whirlaway, who won the TC despite rarely doing what his jockey wanted.
Fager was notorious for being an obnoxious headstrong horse that couldn't stand to see another horse in front of him and was nearly impossible to rate -- getting him beat twice with rabbits vs Damascus.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Slew 103 was the one that said Secretariat could not run the Belmont any faster if he tried. Ignoring what other experts said who was there. Same in the M.C. race. Even Fager jockey said he did it with awsome ease. He also the one that said Eddie would have to tell him in heaven if Secretariat was better than CY. You said the exact same thing. You follow him & BigCY to the tee. You copy off each other or you one & the same person. I believe one & the same no doubt. All Big Red haters.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Yep I said I'd have to hear it from Eddie himself to know what Eddie meant since Eddie seemed to change his mind a lot. To Slew that means Eddie said Citation is the best and I agree that seems to be what Eddie said. Of course I read Eddie saying Kelso would beat Citation and I love ol' Kelso so it's not entirely clear. And to you, you hold to Eddie's observance from the stands, proclaiming Sec the best.
Confusion abounds. i'll have to hear it from Eddie.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Seems to me Eddie was pretty well straight forward. The yr. was 1996 the yr. he died. The question was put to him. He had no ties to Secretariat but CY & Kelso he did. He rode these 2 horses. He plainly said CY & Kelso were the best 2 horses he ever rode plain & simple but rated Secretariat the best he ever seen. He made the same statements before even on TV when he said CY the best he ever rode So nothing new. If you don't know what he meant by that statement then what do you know?
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Don't hand me this BS about Eddie observing him from the stands. He also observed CY & Kelso from the stands as well. He did not ride these horses their whole career. He knew what CY & Kelso was capable of. What a poor excuse if I ever heard one. Eddie knew just by seeing him run he knew he was better than the 2 horses he rode. Thats how good Big Red was. You & others make a mountain out of a mole hill. He told others well before 1996 Big Red was best. Get over it & accept the truth.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Big Red was MOW, the best racehorse to ever grace this planet. Big Cy and Slew love Citation, and feel the same about him. Quite a different thing. Try to keep up.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Slew 103 said they redone Belmont just so Secretariat could win & set a record. No facts nowhere that is true. He is copying off what they did in 1919 where they completly redone the track & in 1920 it was one of the fastest tracks in the entire country. These are true facts. MOW did not stumble in the Dwyer. N.Y. Times proves that & did not say anything about the trees had the start hidden. I still laughing at that one. How silly you MOW lovers are. What total idiots.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
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The way it should be is you quit telling big lies. Then maybe then you will be treated nice. And quit being more than one person. We all know your playing a game period.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
War admiral cut himself wide open at the start of the Belmont, spraying blood all over himself and won. Count Fleet severely injured his leg in the stretch run of the Belmont and wouldn't be held back and crushed the field. Citation raced injured and in pain past 3. Dr. Fager and Kelso laughed at weight. MOW tripped at the start of the Dwyer and still won.
You put the best horses in the '73 Belmont and you think Sec wins by 31? YOU ARE DREAMING. If he wins it's by a length, or two.
evyn10014 10 months ago
Secretariat would have ran all of them into the fround with that tremendous pace in the Belmont. None of them could stand that pressure. All the experts thought Secretariat lost the race when setting that fast pace. They knew no horse could do it not even MOW, CY, The Fleet but was they surprised. Thats the reason Jerry Isenburg said he said 'Peagsus' that day. Thats right he had wings. They never see the likes of him again nor did they see it with MOW, CY or The Fleet. Keep dreaming.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Listen a bit closer, I never said those horses could beat Sec at the Belmont. He was on fire that day. I said it'd be close. No blowout, no way. Other races, other days, absolutely they could beat him and vice versa. Sec had a brilliant TC, doesn't make him the best horse. I know you're not capable of absorbing this from reading all your other "conversations" with others.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Track speed not important? Not a fast track at 73 Belmont?? Really? So why has Sec's Belmont Dirt WR at 1 1/2 held up, but his Derby 1 1/4 and Preakness 1 3/16'ths records both been broken on dirt in other races? (And no I don't care that the horses that beat those records were 4, because no 4 year old has beaten Sec's Belmont time).
Tracks matter, that's what. That track was fast as hell, and his competition was pathetic. Any of the super horses run that 73 Belmont near 2:24.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
First of all no horse has broken Big Red Derby time. The Derby is a clay track & why no horse has ever broken it? Secretariat time don't tell the whole story. In a large field taking the long route, wide in both turns coming from 11 lengths back & the track was about 1 sec. slower than when Nothern Dancer ran . If he ran on ND track the time 1:58 2/5. If ran the rail 1:57 4/5 No horse has broken his Derby record. His Preakness has only been tied.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
You know all of this & you should also know he broke every record from 1 1/8 mile to the 1 1/4 mile in the Marlboro Cup taking the long route besides breaking the 1 3/8, 1 1/2 and the 1 5/8 records in his Belmont victory. The 1 3/16, 1 1/4 in M.C. & 1 5/8 record was all done 'Pulling Up'. Holy Molly what a Hoss.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
No horse has beaten Secretariat Belmont time on dirt, any track. Only on a grass course. How come all the tens of housands of races done on 1 1/2 mile dirt courses no horse has yet came within 1 4/5 seconds of his record? You want to even compare his Belmont times with horses doing it on a turf track. Your getting pretty desperate aren't you? You will try anything to down grade him but its not working. You know nothing about horse racing period.Cont.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Wow, way to repeat what I just said. No horse has ever gone faster for 1 1/2 on dirt in any race than Secretariat. But horses have ran faster than Secretariat at every other distance on dirt. Exactly my point. The Belmont was his signature race -- take that away and he's not even a top 5 horse. With it he's a top three horse.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
How come no horse has ran a Churchill Downs dirt track better than 1:59.40 with all the races that has been done there with most all the greats have ran it except for Man 0' War in which Riddle thought he was still to little of baby to run that early. Holy Cow. Maybe he knew he could not run on 'Clay' nor grass either for that matter because he never did. Maybe because of the real large field entered there in 1920 Derby. Afraid of being boxed in again & couldn't get by? Hehehe
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
There wouldn't have been a large field in the 1920 KD if MOW had entered. At least half the field would have scratched because he ended his 2 year old season by trouncing every horse out there including "Upset" and carrying more weight than Sec did as a 3 year old. If MOW had been in the 1920 KD you'd be crying about how he only ran against a few horses in the derby when he wiped that field out.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
No disrespect to Secretariat. No idolization of MOW. They were very close. So were Count Fleet, Citation, Dr. Fager, Kelso, etc. The top horses were monsters.
Someone on here said horses don't want to win. Are you kidding me? Racehorses LIVE TO WIN. The best horses HATE TO LOSE. They hate to have another horse in front of them. That's why they have to be RATED. Or else they'll just go all out from the start.
Race the best against the best: No blowouts. Super horses do not fold.
evyn10014 10 months ago
Track times: Let me quote Sec fan BBMTGE from 2 years ago:
"The notion of comparing these two by time alone is erroneous. I don't believe it a true measure of either horse for the reason stated: we will never know their true capacities." END QUOTE.
You can't pull out the DRF and compare straight track times. Doesn't work like that. Track's change, conditions change. "Fast" at Aqueduct isn't "fast" at Belmont. Fast at Belmont isn't fast at Santa Anita. TRACK VARIANCE. It's huge.
evyn10014 10 months ago
Eddie Arcaro... a bit wearisome hearing how Eddie felt Secretariat was the best when you can go to the Citation page right here on youtube and hear Eddie say right in your face that Citation was the best... read the Citation book by Georgeoff a friend of Eddie's where he quotes Eddie saying Citation was the greatest he'd ever seen or ridden. And I'm a Kelso and MOW fan. So I guess I'll have to hear it from Eddie himself someday.
evyn10014 10 months ago
Eddie said right in your face he was the best he ever rode. Do you know the difference between being the best you rode and the best he ever seen? MOW was 16.2 hands same as Secretariat. Were in the hell do you get your information? Slew 103 said he would have to hear it from Eddie. You, Slew 103 & Big Cy are one & the same. Who are you trying to kidd? Only in your dreams it would be close CY, MOW & other great in Secretariats Belmont. Your living in a fanasty world & you know it.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
I've read every comment here because I enjoy the conversation. I wish I knew as much about racing as Slew103 because he handed your ass to you over and over again. Slew and Big Cy are Citation fans, and after reading their comments I have to say I haven't given Citation enough credit. But I'm not them and they aren't me.
I'll always believe MOW is the best -- but I'll also always admit I could be wrong, which is something you don't seem to be capable of. Your problem, not mine.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
rscarbo and co., good at hurling insults. I've hurled a few at them as well. My apologies. They accuse me of being Big Cy. Pretty funny as Big Cy probably doesn't appreciate me not feeling Citation was the greatest horse (he might be, but I favor a few others -- feel Cy is right up there though). But Big Cy doesn't call me an idiot or a liar, he has class. Duckworth loves Citation too, but he doesn't feel the need to beat other people over the head with it. That's class.
evyn10014 10 months ago
Other comments... Secretariat ran faster than MOW at every distance. NO. MOW ran 1 5/8ths faster. And that was in 1920. But it doesn't matter that it was 1920 because track times change dramatically, it's called Track Variance and it's huge.
Track Times are not the judge of a racehorse. Winning is. I know it's hard to comprehend, but it's a sport, and winning is what counts. MOW, Citation at 3, Count Fleet, they won easily. NO ONE KNOWS HOW FAST THEY COULD HAVE RUN.
evyn10014 10 months ago
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I've read every crazy comment on here. Secretariat could outrun every other horse because of his heart size. No. He's not the only horse to carry the gene for heart size. MOW has been shown to have had it too. No one knows what MOW's heart size was because he wasn't autopsied.
Other silly comments... Secretariat dwarfed all other horses. No. Wrong. Sec was 16.2 hands, 1175 pounds. Dr. Fager same height, big horse. MOW 16.5 hands. Ruffian, 17.5 hands, Seattle Slew, muscle-bound...
evyn10014 10 months ago
You put the top 10 horses in the world in the '73 Belmont and you have a close race won by a length or two. You don't have a blowout. Let me emphasize that for people who are new to racing or just don't get it, NO BLOWOUTS. It just isn't going to happen.
A 3-year old Sec blowing out a 3-year old Citation? NO WAY. Sec blowing away MOW? No way. Dr. Fager? NO. Could he beat them? OF COURSE. Could they beat him? Absolutely.
Horses are athletes, not robots, not machines.
evyn10014 10 months ago
Some of the comments on this page are beyond ridiculous. The Secretariat booster club all talking to themselves, and accusing people who disagree with them of being someone else who disagreed with them "in disguise." Comical.
MOW, Secretariat, Count Fleet, Citation, Dr. Fager... All Super Horses. The best of the breed. There are others as well. All very close. Let me repeat that, VERY CLOSE. Can't emphasize that enough, VERY CLOSE. No all-powerful dominating winner.
evyn10014 10 months ago
SECRATARIAT IS DA BEST
jmlspa 10 months ago
His answer about Eddy was bar room talk&r Eddy made the statement once Citation is 1 pound better than Secretariat. He is a liar.. If that was ever written it would be in Georgeff book. Georgeff thought CY was better because he beaten older horses before the T.C. How in the hell would that make Citation better I'll never know in 2 life times. You also would not to have to go any further to look at the sorry horses he beat. Armed was already washed up. The rest were champs of nothing.
rscarbro100 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Evyn is BigCy my good man.He argues the very same points over on the Citation video. They are one and the same. To many of us have already figure it out. He is the biggest Secretariat hater of all times. Write such bullshit not even a kid would believe it as you probably have fiured it out yourself. He is overly possessed with him & only with MOW over here just to down play Secretariat. He is a total failure in every since of the word. I truly believe he is Phil Georgeff son.
rscarbro100 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 10 months ago
the greatest is muhammad ali
windedwalrus11 10 months ago
It is always interesting to read posts from people who are can't even approach "critical thinking". It's "someone said this, someone said that". The majority of the time, the statement is misquoted or downright wrong. In that it supports a predetermined point of view and regardless of accuracy, they embrace it. The most confounding is the BH 100. Who cares??? No reasoning, no rationale. A skewed vote to guarantee a particular outcome. But, again, WHO CARES!!!
bbmtge 10 months ago
@Slew103 So Slew, put Count Fleet and Citation in that race on that track on that day and what do you think they run?
evyn10014 10 months ago
The Count tore a tenion in that race by over working it or had a mis-step. It will later swell and collect fluid that will cause lameness. He did not affect thim in the race at all. Every little information you find you use it for a excuse that they could have ran it faster than Secretariat. Are you kin to Bud Delp?
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
What's your point? The Fleet rapped his ankle in the stretch and Longden tried to pull him up. The Fleet wouldn't have it and just kept charging, turning what could have been a minor injury into a major one. Owner Hertz retired him out of respect, saying he wouldn't have the champ appear again all patched up. A damn shame because we never saw how fast that horse could run. He romped the TC with ease and obviously could have run faster.
A comment about the Fleet, not Secretariat.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Another total lie. If a jockey wants to pul his horse up he can.The Count was pulled after the race was he not? He did not rapped his anke in the strecth. Where did you read that? Probably from that liar Londgen. You would believe anthing he would say and he was known to strecth the truth a mile long. Fager was cooked in the Woodward running after a so called rabbit in 9 furlong 1:09 2/5. Ran a 1:07 4/5 in his record mile but was not cooked. Give me a break.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Oh s'bro, the world isn't full of people trying to trick you, geezus...
Bloodhorse Top 100 page 29 2nd paragraph: "Count Fleet rapped an ankle during the Belmont, though, and Hertz retired him, saying he'd never allow the champion to "appear at track as a patched-up horse."
It goes on to say Longden felt him bobble when he hurt himself and tried to take him up but Fleet wouldn't have it and I quote "grabbed the bit in that bull-headed way of his and took off again."
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
What did he do when The Count finished the race? He was pulled up was he not? Then don't tell me Londgen couldn't pull him up in the strecth. These horses have no idea about winning a race. I guess you think they do & after they cross the finish line they know to pull up. Are you that weird? What happen to Big Brown in the Belmont? Was he not pulled up? Your a unbelievable nut case with no common sense at all. Holy Cow.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
It all the same with you MOW & Citation lovers. You telling everyone Secretariat times was the fastest he could produce & not 1/5 second faster but MOW & CY could have ran them over 4 seconds faster. This is exactly what your saying. What sane person would believe such nosense? If MOW let a fart duing a race you would use it I believe.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
You said the Dr. would give Secretariat a race for his money in a 1 1/4 mile race. The rabbit made the Dr. do fractions in the Woodard in 22.2, 45 1/5, 1:09 1/5 and 1:35 3/5 mile and was cooked. Got tired and was blown away. Secretariat fractions in the M.C. 1:09 2/5. 1:33 flat for the mile. Fager already cooked here at the mile post and then Secretariat 'Pulled Up' in 1:57 4/5 for a 1 1/4 mile. How in the hell could the Dr. make it close in a 1 1/4 mile race?Cont.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Yup, that's what I said -- the Doctor would give any horse that ever lived a run for their money at 1 1/4th, and beat any horse that ever lived up to a mile.
Just read the thoroughbred legends book about Fager, you should check it out. Ran the Vosburgh for his last race with 139 pounds on a dead winterized track and still broke the TR by 4/5ths of a second (TR set by Near Man in 63 carrying 112 pounds).
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
You talk about Sec on turf. Check Fager's UN Handicap where he faced as BH described it "just about every top grass horse in America, including future HOY Fort Marcy" who Fager gave 16 pounds to... 1st appearance on grass and he fought through it and won.
How much weight was Sec giving those other horses on grass, hmmm?
Stats don't measure up to a great horse's will to win, and TOUGHNESS. Fager and Sec in a stretch duel up to 1 1/4... I'll go with Fager every time.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
MOW was the same as Fager. Neither of those horses needed blinkers to shield them from the competition. They were tough as nails. MOW had a shitty race in the Dwyer and still won.
Cite all the meaningless stats you want from tracks with huge variances and it doesn't matter. The all-time greats would battle it out head to head, and it'd be close. There would be no blowouts. Later
evyn10014 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Thanks for recommendation on D. Fager book....by Haskins. Looking for it.
Ours' book......was sensational. Great..
Duckworth17 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
It's short but a good read. You can get a lot of the books for Kindle on Amazon at quite a discount... enjoy.
evyn10014 in reply to Duckworth17 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Secretariat wore Blinkers only to alert him you dumb ass BigCYand he never wore bandages like the sissy MOW & CY did. You brought this up with me on the Citation video and about Belmont being a lightning fast track. Your a little boy one day & sissy littlle girl Evyn the next. Yes we are smart enough to know who you really are. One day MOW the best, next day CY the best, then Fager. A Secretariat hater from the 'GO'. Pretty screwed-up I would say.. Your sick & need help.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
lol, my man if you think I'm all the people who have disagreed with you on these pages then I'm a lot of different people. Believe what you want.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Edie Arcaro your hero said Secretariat faster than Count Fleet, Citation, Kelso, Dr. Gager, Slew, The Bid. The fastest horse he ever seen and rated him the best he ever seen. Who is going to take your word or Eddie Arcaro? Laffit Pincay raced Fager head to head & said Secretariat the best. You don't evem know it but you have lost even before you got started. Both these great jockies were well aware the weight these horses carried. Still Secretariat the best cry baby.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Nah, I won't cry over any of it. Everyone's entitled to their opinions.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Source Thoroughbred Hertiage: There were no championships awarded in any official manner until 1936, when Triangle Publications (publishers of Daily Racing Form and Morning Telegraph) conducted a poll of its staff, and Turf and Sports Digest conducted a poll from selected sports journalists. So Secretariat was the first Amercian 2 yr. old champion selected in a offical manner. Native Dancer shared his with another horse.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Secretariat did not race a little pony distance at 7 furlongs. He ran a 1 1/2 mile and broke the track record just jogging around the track playing cat & moues with Tentam. Secretariat was a 3 yr. of under true handicap weight. Fager was 4. Secretariat could have beaten him on grass easy. He ran in "MUD' a workout in 21 3/5 seconds. No contest. Secretariat faster.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
You're a smart guy, well versed in racing... but when you talk about Secretariat beating another super horse like Fager/MOW/Citation/Kelso "easily" you do yourself an injustice.
Match up the top horses and there are no easy wins. Can't overstate that enough, no easy wins, no blowouts, no way. That's what made these horses great. Their will to win.
Have enjoyed your posts, take care of yourself and try not to get too wound up. It's just a sport.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
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You just don't get it. Who in the world told you a horse have a will to win? Who is the dummy that told you that a horse thinks like humans.? Do you really believe a horse knows he is out there trying to win a race & know the distance & where the finish line is? If you do you like the tree huggers who say the trees talk to them & you truly need some big help. Your argument is futile. And this is the only thing you can come up with is their willing to win could have beaten Big Red.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Secretariat proved he could have beaten these other greats with 'Ease' in a 1 1/2 mile or longer race. None has ever came close to him. That race seperated him from all the other greats. His endurance was like no other with that big heart sucking up huge amount of oxygen like no other horse & maded it so easy getting less tired than a normal horse. Thats why he could run those amazing fast fractions and did not collaspe in the strecth. No other horse had muscles like him. Cont.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
He looked like a weight lifter next to all other horses. Has legs of iron and took hard workouts to keep them enormous muscles in shape. Take one look at him coming on the field after Sham in the Belmont & coming into the starting gate. No horse built quite like him. He was the greatest looking running machine against any horse in history.The rest looked like Pee Wee Herman next to him. One look at him will take your breath away. I know now why Hatton was floored by him. Hehehe
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Why did Seabiscuit wear 'Blinkers' sweet heart? Was he afraid of the competition too miss Secretariat hater? Can't wait to hear your excuse on this one.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Laurel Futurity race. The Daily Racing Form chart caller reported that Secretariat was, “unhurried at the start and carefully kept on the outside throughout.” The horse “responded without the need of the whip when given rein leaving the backstretch, forged to the lead entering the stretch and won in hand.”
That term, “in hand” refers to the rider’s hands, kept still and steady, with everything in control. Cont.
,
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
If he’d needed, Turcotte could have moved his hands on the reins to send a hurry-up message to Big Red. But there was no need. Turcotte and Secretariat had the Laurel Futurity victory “in hand.”End of quote. He done all this taking the long route and done in 'SLOP' winning by 8 lengths in a time of 1:42 4/5 as a 2 yr. old. MOW a 3 yr. old on a fast track ran his 1 1/16 mile in a 'TURTLE' time of 1:44 4/5. Holy Cow Big Red with super EASE in slop much faster than MOW as a 2yr. old.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Secretariat blew them all away in the Belmont and all the speculation, theories that them horses could run a 2:26 flat would be even bogus. He would have ran them into the ground like he did Sham. MOW, CY or any of them could not have stand the pressure at that fast of pace. Eddie Arcaro knew that as well & like Joe Hirsch said he seperated himself from all the greats in the Belmont & do you believe he did not know how fast that track was?. Keep dreaming.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Big Red would have cooked him & run him into the ground by the mile mark. 1:09 4/5, 1:34 1/5 in the Belmont. 1:59 flat by the 1 1/4 post and look what he had left for the rest of the race. Fractions in a workout in MUD 45 2/5, 1:09 1/5 and 1:34 flat for the mile. He would have cooked Fager in 'MUD'. Fager ran the Woodward as a 4 yr. old. Big Red never ran as a 4 yr. old. No contest. Who would run a rabbit against Secretariat? He was one himself. Rabbits for Fager none for Big Red.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
The Dr. went all out in his world record mile. How do we know. Because he ran fractions much, much faster at Washington Park than he did in the Woodard. In the Woodward he was cooked going a mile in1:35 3/5 and don't tell me he wasn't cookd after going a mile in 1:32 1/5. Big Red never cooked when ran very fast fractions. Was a stayer & so much stronger going further than any horse. Proved it many times when sound & fit. 1:33 flat mile & still set a W.R. for yrs. on not so fast track.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
And don't tell me Ruffian could run a 6 furlong faster than Secretariat. She ran a 1:08 3/5 from the chute in the Spinaway race. Secretariat went throught the 6 furlongs in the Gotham in the exact time and still had another 2 furlongs to go. Ran a 1:08 4/5 'Pulling Up' in his last workout before the M.C. race. Some silly crap to write about trying to make a stupid point that Ruffian was faster at 6 furlongs.Please give me a break.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
@Slew103 Well said. Put any of the top 5 to 10 horses in that field in good health and there's no 31 length win. Not even a 5 length win. You'd have a dogfight and perhaps an even faster time... And maybe heart failure.
evyn10014 10 months ago
You mean to tell me that Slew, CY and MOW could have ran over 4 seconds faster in the Belmont against Secretariat and give him a good race? You absolutely got be be kidding. Again Secretariat ran his Belmont just as easy than they did. so if they could ran it that much faster then Secretariat could have ran his over 4 seconds faster. Nothing wrong with The Count in the Belmont. From that race they found out that evening he bowed a tendon. Secretariat had stronger legs.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Don't misstate what I said. I said you put any of the greats on that lightning fast '73 Belmont with Sec and you have a race on your hands. You're not gonna have a blowout. Let that sink in: No Blowouts. Those other champs were too game. They were fighters. You're gonna have a close race, within a few lengths. I didn't say who would win.
To say otherwise shows a fundamental lack of understanding of racing. Every track is different, every race is unique. Track variance is huge.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Again you are wrong. It was not a lightning fast track. The variant was .09 not the .05 on the chart. Did your read Russel Cardenas article and do you know DRF used .09 in his Beyer speed figure? Give me a break. Not even close & you know it. Your living in a dream world. Secretariat could have ran a 2:22 and changerin the Belmont & you want to believe CY, MOw & whoever else could too. Holy Cow you are totally insane.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
@Slew103 Curious as to which horses you'd rank as your top 5... Understand you rate Sec better than MOW. I don't agree but am fine with others opinions. Like your posts, interested in your answer.
I have no idea if Sec was on steroids but the 70's were when they hit big time. Am pretty sure he took Lasix though, which the older horses never did.
evyn10014 10 months ago
@Slew103 Interesting comment. US's glory years produced far superior horses to any others in the world, but lately I find the European horses more interesting... Sea The Stars, Goldikova, Zarkava... Wish the US breeding could get its act together.
evyn10014 10 months ago
@Slew103 Check out my recent back and forth with the Sec fans... Seems you've already gone down this path...
On any given day the very best horses could beat each other. They're athletes, not machines. Believing otherwise is a fundamental misunderstanding of sports.
(I'm a competitive athlete as well)
evyn10014 10 months ago
@Slew103 Like CY MOW faced every horse that dared to face him. In the LR his competition was pathetic -- not because Jefford's colt was ordered to jog, because Jefford's entered Hoodwink in the race as a favor the day after he had already raced because all other horses scratched.. Riddle promised to not let MOW embarrass her colt but instead MOW scorched the track and set a WR at 1 5/8th's that it took a horse like Kelso to match.
It was an exhibition for MOW, but it showed his will to run.
evyn10014 10 months ago
Reading Dr. Fager's book now by Haskins... excellent. Georgeff's book next. Good stuff. Ours book on MOW "Legend Like Lightning" is wonderful if you haven't read it. cheers
evyn10014 in reply to Duckworth17 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
@Slew103 Enjoy your posts... I've gotten into it at length with the Sec crew... They just spout times with no regard for track variations, & the competition's TOUGHNESS and WILL. I'd like to see Sec in a stretch duel with MOW, Dr. Fager, Citation or Count Fleet...
I'm no expert on Cy but his TC looked ridiculously easy. Count Fleet destroyed the Belmont injured. And MOW and Fager, they were mean as hell they wouldn't tolerate ANY horse going by them.
Interested in your take on this...
evyn10014 10 months ago
@Slew103 Nice.
evyn10014 10 months ago
Disagree. Horses of today are far inferior to the champs of the golden age. 40's, 60's, 70's... the greatest horses... Today's horses, fragile sprinters, no dominance, not even a hope of a triple crown.
Damn depressing for a fan.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
For thsoe who are interested in the actual performances of the horses and the extraneous detail involved, please disregard a distorted "vote".
bbmtge 11 months ago
For anyone who really gives a damn about a so-called vote, especially one that should have been voided and the member of the panel who voted Sec #14 replaced, please feel free to read what a "panel" has to say. This is recommended, in particular, to suit the deperate needs of someone who cant handle facts and detail. Further, for anyone interested in proclamations, flase claims, LIEs, distortion and most important..."COUL OF", again, please consult BH.
bbmtge 11 months ago
As I said, the rankings are wildly controversial. I only suggested people read the intro as Nack makes some good points about the difficulties of rating horses from different eras...
With regards to the "rankings" I believe they got the top 2 horses right (you think they should be swapped and Sec should be #1, I think they should be co #1's). With regards to the rest of the top 10 I disagree with pretty much every ranking they have in there -- which I'm sure you do as well.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 10 months ago
For anyone who's interested in hearing what one of the BH panelists had to say about the arbitrariness of rating horses from different eras, read the intro to Bloodhorse's Top 100 horses.
He said it's all subjective. Read it for yourself. And this is coming from Secretariat's own biographer.
evyn10014 11 months ago
Does it not register in your brain that Secretariat ran a 1 5/8 mile 'pulling up' in 2:37 2/5 & the only reason it was not offical because it was a 1 1/2 mile race? Don't you realize this tells you what this horse was capable of? & the same in the M.C. 'PU' in 1:57 4/5. Do you believe it is not so? Does this give you any indication of what strength and speed he had? Your like a little kid. Gee daddy it don't count because it was not offical. If it was offical he could do it.BooHoo.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Comment removed
Author withheld
It registers in my mind that Secretariat is clearly one of the fastest horses who ever lived up to 2 miles, and he COULD be the best horse of all time. But as I've consistently said, which horse is the best of all time is a subjective opinion that can't be decided. I have my favorites, you have yours.
Take away the insults and I enjoy reading your posts and learn a lot from them.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
I truly believe you are having much trouble trying to figure all this out & it just cannot register in you brain yet.We know you cannot see any further than the finger in front of your nose. We are here to help you. Its really simple as this. If a horse can be clocked in 2:37 2/5 'pulling Up' the last furlong common sense will tell you he could have ran a 1 5/8 mile much faster than the unoffical time of 2:37 2/5 id not pulled up. Get it yet? Need more help? Holy Cow
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
The Dr. only ran two 1 1/4 mile races under 2 minutes. 1:59 4/5 in the N.H. Classic and a 1:59 3/5 in the Suburban. Peagus Derby 1:59 2/5, 1:59 flat crusing past the 1 1/4 post stting a tremendous pace and another furlong to go in the Belmont. Easing up in 1:57 4/5 in M.C. after setting a tremendous pace. Who's faster at 1 1/4 miles Secretariat or that fastest horse you claim named Dr. Fager? Can you grasp that into your brain? Dr. Fager set his mile record as a 4 yr. old.Cont.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Secretariat ran the Gotham at barely 3 yrs. old and had much trouble in that race. M.C. 1:33 flat setting a tremendous pace passing the 1 mile post not from the shute. The Gotham was his last 1 mile race.If he ran a 1:33 flat mile not out of the chute he surley could have broken Fager record if ran from the shute as a 3 yr. old. Can your brain grasp that. Its called just a little bit of common sense in which you seem not to have any at all. Holy Cow
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
I think Fager would win a close race up to a mile and it would be close at 1 1/4 as well, with Secretariat having the edge -- what I said is the Doctor could give him a good race at 1 1/4.
Many people consider Fager to be the best miler that ever lived. Not sure why you view that as an insult to Sec in a mile race...
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Secretariat's official Biographer William Nack on Man o' War and Secretariat in the introduction to Bloodhorse's top 100, where they were ranked #1 and #2 to great controversy.
Page 7, column 2, top of the page, right side: "One almost wishes they had finished in a tie, these two magnificent chestnuts, leaving one to represent the first half of the century and the other to stand for the second."
End quote.
evyn10014 11 months ago
Sec would have been a monster at 4. But they also would have given him so much weight to carry he also might have gotten hurt.
While it would have been interesting to see what both Secretariat and MOW each could have done as 4-year olds, I'm glad they were both retired healthy to hit it with the ladies.
evyn10014 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
re: Fager's mile record. "Fast Track" is a non issue -- the fastest tracks are in California and this was at Arlington. Secondly he didn't "chase" the rabbit there was no rabbit -- his "competition" at the start was Hedevar, a world-class sprinter who was used by Damascus' connections to beat Fager in 2 other races at 1 1/4 miles, not 1 mile like this race. And lastly, while Fager was a 4-year old he set the record carrying 134 lbs which is appropriate weight for age.
evyn10014 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
You don't want me to talk about Secretariat pull up times yet you want to talk about MOW being restraine or eased. You can't have it both ways. I read the interview Baeza had and nowhere he said the Dr. would have ran it in 1:30 flat. Another one of your lies BigCY. Where else did I hear about one race the Belmont he had does not make him the best.? Hummmmmmmmmmmm
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
That's a fair point... Regarding the other stuff I have read the quote on Fager's mile, it was either from Baeza or Nerud, I'll try and find it for you.
As far as thinking I'm Big Cy, that's pretty funny. I'm sure Big Cy wouldn't appreciate me rating Citation #5 on my list after Count Fleet. But I suspect he wouldn't call me names, he'd just suggest I was sadly misguided.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Here's your quote, it was from Nerud. After Fager set the WR at a mile carrying 134lbs trainer Nerud saw his old jockey Ted Atkinson, who was now a state steward at Arlington, he told him, "Hell, he could have done it in thirty and change; he was six lengths within himself."
Source: Steve Haskin (2009). Dr. Fager: Thoroughbred Legends. Eclipse Press.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
...and the point of this quote is... WHAT???
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
We all make mistakes, and you guys have corrected me when I've made them as well. My issue with you guys is your insults to anyone who doesn't agree with you.
I think Secretariat was mind-blowingly great. I just don't deify him. He might well be the best of all time and if he is that's fine -- but that's a very subjective argument with a lot of different opinions.
evyn10014 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Did you just challenge me to name ONE other horse that got the overall HOY award at 2 years old? How about FIVE?
Favorite Trick 1997, Moccasin 1965, Native Dancer 1954, Commando 1900, Domino 1893
And you call other people's comments foolish, wow...
evyn10014 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I love Secretariat, IMO he's one of the three or four horses that COULD be the best of all time.
Sec was beautiful, explosive, had heart, and could win from any position on any surface. To top it off his connections showed true class in everything they did.
Too bad his "fans" don't show the same class, insulting everyone who doesn't agree with them and deify the horse.
His greatness speaks for itself.
evyn10014 11 months ago
"Could of isn't the same as did." Fager set the mile record, MOW set the WR at 1 5/8, Kelso has the two mile record.
Other than 1 1/2 other horses have every other record on dirt. And faster records on turf.
So apparently lots of horses could beat Secretariat. Doesn't mean he wasn't great. Just means you're a fanboy.
evyn10014 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Comment removed
Author withheld
You wanna talk precocious 2 year olds?
My girl Ruffian ran 6F faster than Secretariat THREE TIMES as two year olds. Secretariat NEVER ran faster than Ruffian at 6F as a 2 year old.
So I guess at 2 years old SHE was better than Secretariat too.
evyn10014 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I could give fuck all about his workouts. No one cares about workouts.
That's like talking about how many balls someone hit over the fence in batting practice.
You wanna talk HOY? Kelso has 5 of them, guess he's better than Secretariat too (I already thought so anyway).
evyn10014 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
@evyn10014 Not oly ran the last furlong with the greatest of 'EASE' but the entire race. Man 0' War was 'EASED' at the end or the last 1/16 mile of his races except for the Dwyer in which he was extended and ridden hard as Joe Palmer and many more said & could only manage a suck time of 1:49 1/5. Don't we all know who is faster? Let it go. It can't hurt that bad & we will forgive you if you come clean.(smile)
rscarbro100 11 months ago
Every top horse could beat Secretariat.
And Secretariat could beat every top horse.
That's the point you drooling groupies don't get.
Horses are athletes, not robots. And there's no one super horse, there have been several.
Keep on dreamin'.
evyn10014 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
You mean every top horse could run a 2:24 1 1/2 mile, a 1:57 4/5 1 1/4 mile pulling up, A 2:37 2/5 5/8 mile pulling up, a 1:59 2/5 derby. Is this what your saying? Yes,many horses could have beaten Secretariat if he was not sound or fit but tell me what horse was capable of running these times I mention you drooling fool, Thats something you can't get. Those times has never been matched. Tell me one horse that ran a 1:57 4/5 1 1/4 mile pulling up or a 2:37 2/5 5/8 PU.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Nice try fanboy. All your unofficial pulling up times don't mean a thing. Every race is unique, on different track surfaces, speeds, different factors... And workout times mean absolutely nothing.
His Derby and Preakness times aren't WR's anymore on dirt, so you can stop talking about them.
His Belmont time is epic, and may not be beaten. But one race and one remaining WR on dirt doesn't make an athlete the best over any distance for all eternity. And ANY DISTANCE? Lol. Cuckoo
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Ruffian ran faster than Secretariat as a 2 year old at 6F three times, Fager faster at a mile, and Kelso would have smoked him at 2 miles. Any distance... Mmmm hmmm.
evyn10014 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Nice try Prissy Sissy. The pulling up times don't mean a thing you say? Your telling me that he could not run it in 2:37 2/5 1 5/8 mile and its all a lie that he didn't? I got some bad news for you. MOW record is broke and replace by some other horse. Hehehe. some more bad news for ya. Secretairat's still stands. Do you know that a horse named Battie Joined ran that LR race in the same time as MOW in 1962? You post again shows the hate you have for Secretariat. congratulations.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Nope. Pulling up times, workout times, Nack's daydream times, all meaningless.
You name the races and times when Secretariat OFFICIALLY ran 6F faster than Ruffian, 1 mile faster than Fager, 1 5/8ths faster than MOW and 2 miles faster than Kelso and I'll concede he's a better horse. But you can't, because he never did.
And no, I don't think Ruffian was better than Secretariat. Making a point.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
the Preakness & Derby never was world records lady. They were track records. Gee I thought you knew a little something about horse racing. Their still track records & only his Preakness has been tied. I am getting pretty tired of teaching you. I will start sending you a bill. Holy Cow now who's the 'Cuckoo'.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
You make an excellent point here -- do I believe every top horse could do that? Absolutely not. But neither could Secretariat every time he raced. My point has consistently been that the top horses were so close in talent and ability that any of them could beat each other on any given day. I know you feel Sec had an extra edge over all the others, you might be right.
If I'm putting money on the various matchups, I would bet on Secretariat most times, but not all.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
There has been many super horses you say? not that many I know of any said. MOW, Fager and Kelso yes a super horse but remember Baeza said Secretariat 'Super, Super' horse. Hehehe
I forgot to ask you. Do you know the name of the jockey that rode Dr. Fager? Want a hint?(smile) Hehehe
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
hmmmm... hmmmm... would he be the same jockey that rode Buckpasser? The name always escapes me...
Funny you should mention Fager's jockey though cause when the Doctor set the WR in the mile Bae -- I mean "he" said he had no idea they had set the record, but if he had urged the Doctor a bit more he thought he could have run it in 1:30 flat. But he didn't, so it doesn't matter.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
@evyn10014 So we have Baeza who said Secretariat ran the Belmont with 'Awsome Ease', Kent Hollingsworth said he did it without raising a sweat, Pay Day said he did it with the least of encouragment, Woodie Broun said he was not tired & was really to go another 1 1/1/2 mile and Red Smith said if asked by Turcotte would have broken Fiddle Isle record of 2:23 flat on grass. This is on record. Tell me now Secretariat did not race the Belmont with the greatest of 'EASE' little ass.Cont.
rscarbro100 11 months ago
@evyn10014 Baeza never said Fager was the best of all time either. Only powerful up to a 'MILE'. And you want to proclaim Fager better than Secretariat. Hell, when did you became such a great expert on horse racing and knew better than the ones that rode or seen them. You have not done either one. You must be in love with yourself.(smile)Hehehe
rscarbro100 11 months ago
@evyn10014 Baeza said in a interview: Fager was one of the fastest horses alive. One of the fastest horses on the track. He could punch a hole in the wind.
as a two-year-old. Then he matured as a three-year-old.
WP: Powerful?
BB: Very powerful. Up to a mile, I don’t think there was a horse that could beat him. At that time anyway End of quote. So now the jockey who rode him did not say he was the fastest but one of the fastest. No horse could beat him up to that 'TIME'. Cont.
rscarbro100 11 months ago
Fager ran 1 1/4 in 1:59 and change numerous times. He could bang heads with Secretariat at any distance up to that. Longer and of course Secretariat is going to take care of business.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Laffit Pincay Jr. raced Fager head to head.He knew how fast the Dr. was yet he proclaimed Secretariat the best. Many horses came close to his record mile and even one tied it. So we all know that record was nowhere compared to Secretariat Belmont. Secretariat show in the M.C. he could have smashed Fager record if ran from the chute not even in top form and on a track much slower than the track the Dr. ran on.
rscarbro100 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Man O War sire of sires beaten by a horse called Upset i think ,, he was the horse of all horses my opinion only xxxxxx
Irishtankgod 11 months ago
No one knows how fast MOW, Count Fleet or Citation could have won because they all won so easily as 3-year olds that they didn't have to push it to the limit.
(We all know how fast Dr. Fager could run though, and it was faster than Secretariat.)
evyn10014 11 months ago
The only winner here is Carly Kaiser. 300,000 + views of people getting all hot and bothered over dead horses that never raced. Damn Carly you should sell tix.
slimjimsmyth 11 months ago
I'll go with Man o War. He looked like a bad-ass.
slimjimsmyth in reply to slimjimsmyth (Show the comment) 11 months ago
SECRETARIAT
angelina20115 11 months ago
Here's a question that should answer the debate - which horse set records at ALL THREE of the Triple Crown races (even though the Preakness still isn't officially recognized) that still stand?
RabidDogma 11 months ago
at Belmont trounced MOW by some 15 lengths..all the while, pulling up!!! I posted a similar situation about the MC. As usual, no reply form the idiot/ distorter. That is the final game played by her. simply run away and dont rely to the actual and factual scenario but, continue on to another distortion and denigration. More to follow.
bbmtge 11 months ago
It is so easy to see she is a Secrtetrariat hater the way she underscore Secretariats achivements. Its not her true opinion but is a 'Bias' & hated opinion. Why, because if MOW ran workouts and 'Pulling Up' times like Secretariat she would fly off the rocker telling about them. Even the slightest thing MOW done well she makes a mountain out of of a mole hill out of it. To her Secrtetariat T.C. races & 'Pull Up' times was nothing that special. Not even the 1:57 4/5 PU time in the M.C.
rscarbro100 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Very well said. I also "like" when she palys the passive/agressive game. Denigration and underscore followed by please of "opinion". Too funny.
bbmtge in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Tell me something my good man and I know you will be truthful. Have you ever read where just 'ONE' old time track horseman ever stated that has seen both that said MOW the better? Please if you have let us all know. I am very confident you cannot. The reason is just plainly because they were none out there at least not in this world. Evyn cannot so now I am asking someone that is on Secretariat side to come up with one. I have myself try to find out but come up empty.(smile)
rscarbro100 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Did you schoolboys just spend all night passing notes back and forth about me? That's so cute. While you were doing that I just had a dope ass dinner at WD-50 and we didn't talk dead horses one time. But if you're ever on your way to Belmont to put a wreath on the track for Sec head on over to Clinton Street first and get the wagyu deconstruction.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I do not know of any. It's unfortunate that, too a person, the MOW fans we "see" here are comeplte morons, unable to present COMPLETE facts, details, etc. Truth be told, MOW had to have blown the, then, horse racing world away with his fractions. I would be willing to be that some on the BH panel saw him as the standard by which future G1 horses would be compared. Decades ahead of his time. But, I stand by, through no fault of MOW's, that the change of the breed with the...
bbmtge in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
...advent of Nearco, and particularly, Nasrullah...the millions of foals dropped that produced drastically more competitive racing and large fields created a virtual sea change in TBR. The fact that so dominant a horse, produced in that competitive era, accomplished what he did is outright freakish. Look at the MC. We all know that the top horses need a rhythm of workouts and racing. A blood infection, no work for nearly 6 weeks, one decent workout prior to the race, a heavily...
bbmtge in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
You ever so correct. More foals and better breeding than one ever could imagine since MOW time. Agree MOW was ahead of his time but time caught up with him. It began with Count Fleet IMO and when Secretariat came along he was surpassed and Secretariat became the standard by which all of his likes are judged. Like Woodie Broun told Whitney Tower we probably will never see the likes of him again. And we haven't yet.
rscarbro100 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I could not agree with you more. I honestly think, that as we move forward, there is a general lack of understanding as to what Sec did e.g. the KD and the MC. The Dr. Fager / Damascus races were legendary, but the 1973 MC, I think, is at the very same level. Further, if we go with Nack and assume Sec at 80-90% "post-virus" we have Sec running 4 races in 6 weeks at 9, 12, 12, and 13 furlongs.
bbmtge in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
thinks MOW was surpassed by Count Fleet? Right... MOW ran faster than the Fleet at 1 mile, 1 3/16, and 1 1/4. The Fleet did run 1 1/2 three 10ths of a second faster though. Of course the Fleet was let to run and hurt himself in the stretch, while MOW was under a pull (still won by 20 lengths, the Fleet by 25).
Tell some more lies Booster, your head's up your ass.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
But since rscarbro brings up Count Fleet... like MOW and unlike Secretariat, the Fleet went undefeated as a 3-year old.
And re: Count Fleet and MOW... Kelso had both their blood in him. No wonder he won HOY 5 times, and Arcaro considered him better than Citation, (who Arcaro apparently considered better than Secretariat).
Funny any Sec fan could talk superior breeding since MOW, since MOW is one of the greatest sires ever and largely responsible for that breeding...
evyn10014 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Arcaro knew how fast Citation and Kelso could run so don't give the shit about no one knows how fast they could have ran. Secretariat ran just as easy has any of these horses you named Secretariat never was driven out in any of his victories. Joes Palmer himself said MOW was exteneded in the Dwyer. Was 'Ridden Hard' yer could only manage a slow time compared to Secretariat in a joke time of 1:49 1/5. Pat Day said Secretariat ran the Belmont with the least of encouragement. Cont.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
By your own logic you should appreciate the fact that MOW ran the LR in WR time equally at ease as Secretariat's Belmont. Kummer didn't even carry a whip. And that time holds up against any horse you'd care to name.
The Dwyer wasn't MOW's finest hour. But it was gutsy, and he won.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Red Smith, Broun, Hollingsworth and all make statements how easy Secretariat ran the Belmont and any moron could see it for himself If they watched the race. Again we all can plainly see your a biggest Secretariat hater ever. You know how easy he won his races yet say different. You just will not tell the truth about him will you.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Braulio Baeza quote:Braulio Baeza, no stranger to these classics rode Twice a Prince and did a great job. "My horse ran better than I expected he would," said Braulio.
"But Secretariat is a super horse."
Is he Super?
Super, super horse, maybe? Count Fleet won the Belmont by 24 lengths and yesterday Secretariat looked like Count Fleet coming down the stretch, pulling away with awesome ease.End of quote. Thats right Fager jockey said with 'AWSOME EASE;.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Pretty big shout out there for the Fleet... Where does he (fleet) fit in the pantheon?
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
I'm curious, if you had been on the BH panel, how would you have voted for the top 5? I ask out of interest, not to argue, as I already listed mine.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Many does not realize just how great his M.C. victory was. It was all the things you pointed out and more.Taking the long route to a world record and the track conditions were not lightning fast as clearly pointed out by Whitney Tower. it was a track that did not fancy R.R. nor Cougar.What if that race was done on a Santa Anita track. He would had broken all world records from a mile & well beyond 'Pulling Up'. And he was no way in top form like he was in his T.C. races. Unbelievable
rscarbro100 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
That's a great point. Had they run on a dry, fast track at Santa Anita and, a Sec in TC conditon, you might have him in the low 1:44's.
bbmtge in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Sorry to hear of your dissapointment with the film...and fully expected you to be thrilled with it. Fwiw, Roger Ebert gave a very positive review. He was a buddy of Nack's back in school. I keep passing it by at the rental machine....because not a big fan of Lane. From what is known of the trainer, don't understand the choice of Malkovich as Laurin..?
Cyclone Larry...is what I'll take a chance on...
Duckworth17 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I don't understand the choice of Malkivich either. I knew Roger was pals of Nack & known Elbert for yrs. We just don't have the same taste when it comes to movies. Just because I believe Secretariat was the best ever does not mean I would have liked the movie. I believe they missed so many important parts of Secretariat career. To be honest I never liked Laurin himself.
rscarbro100 in reply to Duckworth17 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
credentialed field, a very fast pace on a wet track...and Sec produces a WR, with ease under a hand ride. Freakish. In any event, I digress. I have not read of any individual who actually saw both horses state that MOW was better. As stated, it is unfortunate that his so-called fans here are beyond absurd.
bbmtge in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
The only thing absurd is comparing horses from different eras and proclaiming one to be a god above all others when at least 4 or 5 other horses have made their case to be just as good or better.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
My good man, how can you actually type this stuff: I don't think Sec's TC races were special? His Belmont was only the greatest performance in the history of horse racing as I've said many times. All apologies if I'm not enough of a fan for you.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
and even has a portion, that isn't turf!!! Now, we have Sec, from memory,in a 13 horse field and in the 13th position; a duel for the lead for a substantial portion of the race; on the very deep Woodbine turf, rain-soaked, thick fog, 100% humidity, falling rain mixed with snow and 40 degrees. Interesting. Now, how does that compare to a 2 horse race on a fast track at Belmont??? The true compariosn has been stated...one, as usual, that she won;t acknowledge...that Sec 1 5/8th's fraction...
bbmtge 11 months ago
...evyn makes the general claim that turf is faster than dirt, i.e. all turf tracks will produce a better time than all dirt tracks. Makes sense, yet??? The details that form the true picture are omitted because they don't suit her distortion.. She has already run away from the following facts on one other occasion. Fact is, Woodbine, at 1 5/8th's miles has produced notoriously slow times. The course is irregular and the track surface is uneven to the tune of 2 feet!!! The race has 3 turns...
bbmtge 11 months ago
That right. Her comparsion between the two is only one sided. She will not comapre both when both ran on dirt fast tracks carring the same weight. She has to go to a race were MOW times were better not even considering the track conditions or anything else. Its just a 1 5/8 mile race period with her. Its like not seeing past your own nose so to speak.To her if MOW was eased up it means he could have ran it 2 or 3 seconds faster period. Won't comment on Secretariat 'Pull Up' times. Why?
rscarbro100 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
The lady in question will not compare those times because its like comparing apples to oranges in every way I don't care to waste time discussing. But you guys feel free to.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
All the world records are now held on turf, hence the point of turf in general being faster than dirt. I can't type fast enough to correct you slim shady.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
It's so funny what you do when you are backed into a corner. You continue to make an ASS of yourself. You are so desperate to run post SOMETHING, that you say anything. Each surface is listed separately with respect totimes so that the most moronic fan has an understanding that they are different form one another and, to even the most moronic fan, that nearly every horse runs on one surface or another. It's only the very few of the GREATS that have had true success on both surfaces.
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
It's a very simple truth. All WR's now on Turf, and turf times notably faster than dirt. Can't argue with reality.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Interesting thing about the pattern you see with evyn, BigCy, patt et al. Probably one and the same. The concept is to "speak" in terms of generalizations and/or detail that is, at the same time a withholding of key information so as to take/portray a distorted point of view. Another tactic is to speak in terms of "it is becuase I say it is" and/or proclamations i.e "would of, should of, could of". If you take Woodbine, for example. The attempt is to "compare' this race with MOW's Lawrence...
bbmtge 11 months ago
Fact: Count Fleet's jockey Longden said the Fleet could beat Secretariat. Fact: In the Interview with Arcaro on the Citation page old Eddie clearly says Citation was the best 3 year old ever. Fact: Dr. Fager's trainer Nerud said no horse ever could beat Fager in a mile race.
And these statements were all well after '73.
So lots of "experts" disagree with you. And all your hearsay and "Sec could have done this or that" doesn't mean shit.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Arcaro never said Citation was the best 3 yr. old he ever seen. He said he was the best 3 yr. old he ever 'RODE' Do you know the difference? This is what he told Christine in that interview. Need I post it again or did you ever read it. Get the head out of your ass I never said Count Fleet was better than Man 0' War. I said you started to see the better breeding first with Count Fleet. Time started catching up with MOW with the Fleet.MOW was surpassed by Secretariat not the Fleet.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I think MOW could have been surpassed by the Fleet, Citation, Fager, or Secretariat, maybe others? But I also think he might not of being surpassed at all, as I don't believe you can fairly compare horses from different generations -- A sentiment I got from Mr. Bill Nack, as he eloquently stated in the intro to Bloodhorse's top 100.
Obviously Nack felt Sec should be #1. Being a good guy, he wrote that they should have been honored with a tie, and I agree.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
That is not at all what Nack said. More disinformation from the fool. What Nack said, and to be specific, was that had he known someone would vote in the manner they did (voting Sec #14) he would have placed MOW at #14 to even the field which ultimately would produce a tie. The comment had nothing to do with a belief that the horses should tie. You are nothing but a complete friggin' stupid LIAR.
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
My god you're sad. You accuse me of lying about Nack's statement?
Bloodhorse Top 100, page 7, column 2, top of the page: (Nack speaking of Secretariat and MOW) "One almost wishes they had finished in a tie, these two magnificent chestnuts, leaving one to represent the first half of the century and the other to stand for the second." End quote.
You need to drink your milk and get in your PJ's, I think it's past your bedtime.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
At least we now have the quote. The quote is completely different from what you said. Huge differecne between "one ALMOST WISHES" and making the coment that you did. But, as always, you just cant help being a stupid retard.
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
lol, do you listen to yourself? I guess you must since I doubt you have many friends.
It's ironic that I live in the same town as Penny Tweedy, cause I think if she were to read the posts of the so-called "fans" of her horse on this page she might just throw up on her screen.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Keep posting and then running. Again, your lack of any originality is amusing. All you can do is get called out and then, several posts later, take what someone else said and TRY to use it yourself. Funny how you make the absurd comments that you do about say, Dr. Fager, and then, we don't hear any more about it. You cant get Woodbine straight, you can't get Dr. Fager's career straight, you cant get Nack straight in that for all your attempts you leave out the most important...
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Cuckoo bird, when you start arguing with quotes in black and white, you've lost it and everyone just tunes you out and moves on.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 10 months ago
I guess my previous post is confirmed. The idiot has nothing intellectual to post. Too funny. You cant get anything straight. The name happens to Penny Chenery as the Tweedy was dropped many moons ago. As usual, whether it is important or not, you just make an idiot of yourself. I actually think that Ms. Chenery would like the fact that while you have denigrated Sec and bald-faced lied with extreme distortion...the fact that you withhold accurate information to attempt to support...
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Penny is a classy lady, she'd be embarrassed by you.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 10 months ago
a completely warped point of view...as stated, she would like the fact that not only did Sec fans defend him, but that they did so with very detailed and factual research. Please keep posting your insane rhetoric. You seem to never tire of being the ASS that you have shown each and every time.
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
...and that is EXACTLY WHO NACK VOTED FOR. So...here is your challenge. Let's see if you can actually make a factual statement, with detail, well researched and without the typical distortion. Just as important, let's see if you can be original. Let's see if you fall into the same old stupidity of trying to copy what is evdident about you, only to try, in vain, to turn it aorund. My bet is that you aren't capable.
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I'd rather make a general statement many others have expressed before me, that you're a bitter useless old man who isn't worth talking to.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 10 months ago
LOL...can't help yourself. Let's see you've done a 180 degree turn and made a fool of yourself. Now you express a disdain for facts and details in favor of your typical line of bullshit. By the way, make sure you keep your dental appt....for a haircut, that is!!!
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
That is fair to say 1.Seretariat,.a toss-up between MOW & Kelso. But MOW probably the better because he would have been much better at 4yrs. or more if he ran. There is no doubt in my mind Secretariat was the most capable of them all. I believe he proved it. If MOW, Kelso done what he did I would be jumping off the empire state building to let it be known. I am not in love with Secretariat. I like all the horses. Its just my most humble opinion. Cont.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Just what else in hell can I say. When a horse broke all 3 T.,C. races and the way he did it plus the unbelievable time in the Belmont & easing up another furlong for a 1 5/8 mile in 2:37 2/5 And coming off a serious illness and hurring up with a few workouts getting ready for the M.C. race And done that WR time And PU 1:57 4/5 for the 1 1/4 mile left me speechless. I am sorry but what else can a horse do to impress the living hell out of someone? What a 'Super' monster of a horse.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Very well put. I believe he was spectacular as well, and did things no other horse has done. And he could be the greatest ever -- but I don't place him head and shoulders above the very best of the best -- because they did things no other horse has done before as well. If I sound unimpressed by Secretariat then I've done myself a disservice because I am a fan.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Just where Count fleet fits in I am not quite sure. He never did the awsome things Secretariat, MOW and Kelso done. Only great race was the Belmont IMO. I am sure he fits in the top 10. Fager better at middle distance and not doubt The Count was stronger at long distance.There is several of them that is really hard to seperate. The top 3 of mine pick make no mistake about their athleticism, Believe it showed more than the rest of the crop expecially Secretariat.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Yep, the Fleet is an interesting question, as it's pure speculation. I rate him in my top 5 as I don't think we saw his best. He won all three TC races so easily we don't know how fast he could run. Just by what I've read I think they would have gone for records after the TC races but then he got hurt at the Belmont and they retired him. Hertz said he didn't want his champ horse racing at less than his best and I respect that.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
What other horse in history ever ran each quarter faster than the previous fone or a 1 1/4 mile race & set a track record still not broken? What other horse in histroy made a move so early like he did in the Preakness & went on to set a track record that is only tied to this day? That move so early would have cooked most any great stake horses. And what can we all say about his Belmont win. Still a WR today by 1 4/5 seconds. What horse ever done anything so great in 3 straight races?
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
I totally agree. It's inarguable that Sec's Triple Crown run was the greatest in history, I'd be the first to say it.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
When did you move from Manhattan, N.Y. to Boulder, Colorado?
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
why?
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Dear Sweet Cheeks, Your continued attempts at reversal simply do not work. Are you that stupid??? How is it that you use the same, redundant, commentary in the same post??? Again, are you that stupid??? I would like to believe that it is a game; that no one could be so stupid as to embarass themself in that manner; especially over and again. Now, let's take these statements one by one. Longden's statement refers to a horse that was 20 lengths behind Sec in each of the TC races...
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Dear Booster, your continued ability to miss what I'm saying is impressive. I don't think Count Fleet was better than Sec. His jockey thought he was though.
You point out the Fleet's TC times are way slower than Sec's -- absolutely, he won each in a romp. Did I say he could have beaten Sec's times? Nope, just that he could have run faster so we don't know.
Assemble a fantasy field of the best and race them 10 times at different distances and no one horse is going to sweep the races.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
It is always interesting. Now, you make a comment and then completely back away from the context of the statement. Your so-called complaint in the beginning of the comment is then followed by exactly what you were complaining about. Further, You have demonstarted time and again a "could of" approach to the tune of vast distancse and times..."c'mon bro" ring a bell. With respect to Sec in the MC; an ailing horse sidelined with a blood infection for 6 weeks with one good workout...
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
No idea what you're babbling about, sorry.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 10 months ago
...and not pronounced fit for the race until 72 hours prior, goes out and trounces a championship filed under a hand ride all the while, in my opinion, not looking very good physically, wide and on a wet track. Pulling up he's at 1:57 and 4 for 10 furlongs. Is it reasonable to, conservatively, give him several more lengths on a CA track, in top form? I believe so. Slight bit of difference bewteem that and your advancing horses to the tune of 5 seconds and 20 plus lengths.
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Aye, it was an impressive performance to say the least.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Funny how you make a statement in a vain attempt to support your own point of view then, when obliterated with the facts, you reverse course and run away from said statement. Funny how nothing that you post holds up to scrutiny. so much so, that you allowed yourself to visit the land of "could of" over and over again. Funny, you made a comment that MOW "could of" run in a large field though Sec actually did, and won. Now you'll say MOW ran in large fileds at 2YO in a desperate...
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
attempt to save face when, in fact, MOW nver ran more than 3/4 mile at 2YO and in some cases on a straight track. We're talking 3YO here. Yet, you proclaim he "could of". Now...when pointed out in detail Sec health, etc leading to the MC, one good workout, not being proclaimed ready until 72 hours prior, WR time on a wet track, wide and under a hand ride...now when it is advanced that, conservatively, he "could of" gotten a few more lengths in good health and on a CA track you...
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
become the consummate hypocrite. There is an enormous difference between fanstasy to support a ridiculous point versus a conservative estimate, given details and facts. You are, likely, the most unoriginal fool I have ever had the pleasure of continually besting in debate.
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I guess you've bested your own hero Bill Nack in your debate then, as he himself pointed out it's futile to compare horses from different generations.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Let's see if you can stick to the friggin' LIE you posted as to Nack's comments. Then, suggest you read what Nack said about horses from different generations. That was not his comment. He stated what old horsemen had said to him. Again,you prove yourself a LIAR and an ASS!!! At this point, I am pleaede that you have stopped posting about MOW. MOW does not need a so-called fan such as yourself. Suggest you find youtube for the retarded. you will probably be in better company.
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
People should read Nack's intro and judge for themselves. They'll find I described it accurately. Your ranting and raving doesn't persuade anyone of anything. Just gives people headaches.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 10 months ago
...Eddie Arcaro said that Sec was "the fastest horse I have ever seen". As for Dr. Fager. Let's deal with the facts versus the comment. Proven on the racetrack, and even at 4YO, there was a way to beat Dr. Fager. If you look at his losses to Damascus through the use of a rabbit, in each race( 10 furlongs) the 3/4 fraction was approx 1:09 and 2/5th's. The good Dr. could not run this fraction and finish strong. That, as stated, is a fact. Sec showed that regardless of ailing health at...
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Fager's weakness was his unwillingness to be rated, not a lack of endurance (at least up to 1 1/4). He ran 1 1/4 under 2:00 multiple times.
Secretariat had better race sense than Fager and could be rated masterfully. Hence if you'll note I said I thought Fager would do well against Secretariat in either a match race or a race with no rabbits up to 1 1/4.
Even with a rabbit Fager would do fine in a mile race as he showed when setting his WR with Hedevar in the field.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
You are a complete ASS as well as a complete LIAR. Again, are you really that STUPID??? Fact, Dr. Fager could not hold a 3/4 fraction in what Sec could and finish. Do you not get it??? Are you so full of shit that you cant even grasp facts. Sec running a 3/4 fraction under complete control in the 1:09 range would make it so Dr. Fager could not finish strong. Try as you might, you cannot distort the truth. God, you are beyond stupid!!!
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Have you tried rabies shots? They might help.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 10 months ago
...furlongs or up to 12 furlongs he could not only handle that fraction, he could finish in WR time under a hand ride. Funny, I actually fell sorry for you in that you continue to make a complete ASS of yourself. The only thing I can figure is that there is some sort of limitation to your thought processes with regard to information assessment to continue to make such utterly stupid statements. Congratulations!!!
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
OOps. I meant all three races "dominantly." I certainly hope they both won more than three.
agembry1 11 months ago
Secretariat won all three races. Watch the '73 Belmont. That's all you need to know. Only Secretariat was referred to as "a tremendous machine." Man O' Who?
agembry1 11 months ago
It's called an opinion. Your opinion is that Sec was the best. Mine is that MOW was -- and as I've stated, I feel any of the top 5 or so have made a case for being the best of all time.
The difference is, I'm cool with you guys feeling it's Sec. Doesn't offend me, or make me want to call you an idiot or a bitch.
I feel the very best were hairs apart from each other -- you feel Sec was head and shoulders above the rest. I don't need to justify my opinion and neither do you.
evyn10014 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
It is very peculiar that every old time track horseman on record stated that Secretariat was better that seen both. I wonder why is that & none is nowhere to be found who said MOW was better. Hummm. And prissy Evyn cries her eyes out saying there is but just cannot produce any names but Bowen was sure there was some but even that guy who laped up every bit of information he could find on MOW could not come up or even remember or produce one himself. Not even Ours. Kind of odd wouldn't you say.
rscarbro100 11 months ago
Comment removed
Author withheld
Hah nice writing. "I write a fuck of a lot better than you..." Hahahahaha.
MOW didn't come first. Racing had been around for hundreds of years before him. Racing's first TC winner came before him, as did undefeated Colin and many others.
If it was about who was first another would have been on the cover. It was about who's best, so MOW is.
Learn some history.
evyn10014 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
@evyn10014 Please little girl make a comment about Secretariat 'EASED' another furlong in the Belmont clocked in 2:37 2/5 passing the 1 5/8 pole. Was that unbelievable? What would be your comment if MOW or any horse in history done that on dirt? Its got you lock-jawed has it not. Are you to ashamed to answer it with dignity? If Kelso done that I am sure you would make a big deal of it but not Secretariat. Your the one that is 'Bias' than hell. What about that 1:57 4/5 PU a whole furlong in M.C.?
rscarbro100 11 months ago
2:37 2/5 'Pulling Up' vs. MOW 2:40 4/5 not pulling up a whole furlong is beating him by 17 lengths. So lets not give MOW 2 more lengths here my good man. (smile) Unbelievable Secretariat beats MOW 1 5/8 distance by 17 lengths 'Pulling Up'. WOW another world record by just easing another full furlong and they want to talk about MOW being 'EASED' in his races. It is so very laughable to even think about it. MOW fans don't want to talk about that race but want go to muddy Woodbine.
rscarbro100 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
FYI gang. I know that most of you already know that evyn ,BigCY aka little pussy are one and the same. She took the bait. I caught BigCy and his anti-Sec bs over at a Spec Bid video. Same old attack and denigration garbage. But, like I said, she took the bait and immediately comment here on what I had said at the Bid video. What kind of complete moron goes on youtube under different names and writes in virtually the same style of lies and bs. Too funny.
bbmtge 11 months ago
Dream on gramps. What did Big Cy say, that you were a douche? I agree!
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Read on, and see if you can reply. Somehow I think it will be more of the same dodgeball and lies. Try as you might, you justv cant win...lol.
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Interesting you mention the DRF because MOW is on the cover of my DRF Champions book... Hmmm... wonder why that is...
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Standard... Weight... For... Age... Yawn...
evyn10014 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
lol MOW crushed Paul Jones easily when he raced him. You're slandering MOW with your imagination that he couldn't win in traffic is funny cause you have no idea what he could do.
MOW was a fast starter, he would break in front of the competition in a big field and wear them out as they tried to chase him cause he had great endurance... C'mon 'bro you know this.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
You have not the slightest clue why Secretariat was held back in most of his races don't you. It was because of what happen in his first race. A slow starter can't run a 33 2/5 3/8 mile and a world record at the time in is workout before his 3 yr. old season.Turcotte could have started him fast or slow. Whatever he felt was best for the race expecially when a lot of horses were entered. MOW could have ran anywhere he wanted too but never could get to the line faster than Secretariat.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Everyone knows Secretariat was mugged out of the gates in his first start. It's just that no one but you and your twins cares.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I made another terrible mistake. Secretariat ran that 3/8 mile workout in 32 3/5 seconds as a 2 yr. old. Still a 33 2/5 seconds was never approached by MOW.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Still playing would of should of and especailly COULD OF. The horse didn't do it, i.e. run in large fields so, to siut, your argument, you simply state that he could. That unsupported comment has no place in a debate. Most important, the one time he ran a 1:09 fraction at 6 furlongs...HE DIED..both MOW and JPG ran the last 3/8th's mile at a 26 and 2/5th second pace. Dorothy Ours said MOW's ribs were heaving like a bellows after this race. Tell me, how much weight did JPG carry...
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
...and what time did he run??? Your continued complete ignorance and fantasy-speak is consistent. You stick your foot in your mouth every time.
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Now we'll contract the Dwyer with the 1973 Marlboro Cup. We've got Sec, Riva Ridge (Hall of Fame, 1971 and 1973 Eclipse Award, KD and Belmont; Key To The Mint, 1972 Eclipse Award; Kennedy Road, 4 Canadian Championships; Cougar ii, 1972 Turf Champion) FOUR horses run the 3/4 fraction in 1:09 and change on a wet track. Sec (not looking good physically and his first race after his virus, never fully recovered, breaks clear and wins under a hande ride; WR at 1:45 and 2/5ths...
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
@evyn10014...that time is nearly 20 lenghts faster than MOW and while still recovedring from illness. Riva Ridge ran roughly 1:46 and Cougar ii 1:46 and 1/5th. It is quite possible that the entire field, that day, ran a faster 9 furlongs than MOW did in the Dwyer. Level of competition - CASE CLOSED!!!
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I'm sorry but MOW ran 1 1/4 miles in 1:49.2, it took Sec 1:59.4
lol83023 11 months ago
Not true I'm afraid.
evyn10014 in reply to lol83023 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
And finally, accusing me of being someone else is the ULTIMATE IRONY considering you three trolls all say exactly the same thing make the same spelling/grammatical errors and all respond at the same time. Laugh Out Loud.
Maybe you're all roommates in the looney bin.
I'm out.
evyn10014 11 months ago
The Woodbine track was muddy up to your ass lady. Turcotte & Hatton told about those bad racing conditions. Its in the Daily Racing Manual. Still you cannot tell me if you have the Newspaper where it said MOW broke a record in his workout. I did not know you knew more than Arcaro. You said you will take his word for it when he said Secretariat was better than CY & Kelso. Yet you of all people say Kelso was best & you never seen him ran. You gotta be mentally insane. No kidding.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
You want the newspaper from 1920? Really? Tell you what, you produce Arcaro to set the record straight on who he felt was the best and I'll give you the newspaper.
Where in the world did you get that I think Kelso's the best? I seem to have put a list on here a while back...
1) MOW
2) Kelso
3) tie: Dr. Fager and Secretariat
4) Count Fleet
5) Citation
That's my personal OPINION, but I could be totally wrong about that... The Doctor could be #2 and Kelso tied with Sec at #3.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Charles Hatton had been the dean of American turf writers fopr decades before the rise of Secretariat & has seen them all since the era when MOW and Sir Barton struttled their stuff on the racing stage; in the end he declared Secretariat to be the most capable racehorse he had ever seen. You lady never seen none of them race & you declare MOW, Fager, CY & MOW better. Do you really know how stupid you are in all due respect?
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Guess you can't read a simple list. I never said I thought Citation was better than Secretariat, you're crazy.
Fager's a whole different story though... especially after that magic season in 68 (best ever single season? I'd say yes).
Many consider Fager to be the best of all time -- and most experts consider him to be the best sprinter ever... sorry to bust your bubble on that.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Of course oyu did. You forgot you said it as BigCY aka little pussy.
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
After the passage of over 2 decades since his death at Claiborne Farms, is that Secretariat continues to be viewed as the modern standard against which all members of his tribe is judged. Not MOW, CY. Kelso, Swaps, the Bid or any other. Secretariat stands alone. .
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Right... Those hacks at Bloodhorse, what were they thinking putting MOW #1? Damn LIARS and CHEATS I hate them.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
You damm right they were hacks. Neither them ever seen Man 0' War. One voted Secretariat 14 best. Now you know why they were hacks. And why they were asked to vote & not the old time horseman who has seen both. Tell me that.How about most all that seen both ran said Secretariat the best. No, they were not hacks. They surely had the best jdugment. Does common sense tell you that? Bllodhorse knew what the out come would have been hands down for Secretariat if they voted.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
You're looney. Every person on the Bloodhorse panel is a longtime turf writer. You talk bias? No one is more biased than Chenery family biographer Bill Nack. If anyone shouldn't have been on that panel it was him.
MOW and Sec got the same number of #1 votes, MOW got one more #2 vote because someone as crazy as you voted Sec #14 (you would have voted MOW #14).
They should have gotten a tie, as your friend Nack said himself in the intro.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Fager, The Bid & Slew would not make my top 3. MOW & Kelso ahead of them because of their stamina. I am smart enough to know that MOW was not 14th best. Much better than that but smart enough to know like all the old time horseman who has seen both said that Secretariat was better.Smart enough to know that MOW loss to Upset was a fluke but not dumb as you that believe Secretariat losses were not flukes. Nack did not vote MOW 14th it was one of the Citation sucks. Cont.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I'm aware Nack didn't vote MOW #14. He voted him #2. What Nack said is, if he'd have known one of the panelists was going to vote Secretariat #14 he would have voted MOW #14 to cancel it out.
And I also know which panelist voted Sec #14 -- which of course was crazy. But I already answered that in another post long ago.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
I agree with you on the Bid and Slew but I think Fager was a monster talent and deserved to be in the top 3 or 4... Everyone knows you're smart, but you get nasty when people don't agree with you, no matter how polite they are. Makes no sense.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Seems to me your doing a pretty good job of being nasty yourself. I guess I care about it about as much as you care about MOW. Slew was not as fast as The Bid or The Dr.
all were monsters. some better monsters at different distance. None of these 3 were monsters at long distances. Secretariat, MOW and Kelso were. Between MOW & Kelso who's the better I am not sure but Secretariat seperated himself from MOW & Kelso at long distance with the win in the Belmont. Hirsch said that himself.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Well 'bro sometimes it's hard to be civil when someone accuses you of being a fool or an ass or a liar for quoting something straight out of Bloodhorse or the DRF. Sometimes I riled up.
That's a fine post about MOW/Kelso/Sec. Take Fager out and you have the list I put up a while back, which I'm guessing you would reorder a bit 1) Sec 2) MOW 3) Kelso. Hard to argue with that.
If only more people felt as strongly about today's horses as we do, the game would be in better shape.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
I am not smart. I do not like people bragging on me with all due respect. There are a few things in life I believe I have a very good grasp on but nothing to bragg about whether it is good .No doubt MOW was one of a kind and way ahead of himself in time. I truly believe the breeding much improved since his times and with some many horses foaled since that. We all know now the breeding is not like it used to be. You learn with age. You mature with age. Always been told that now I know.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
That right one of BigCy sucks not Nack who voted him #14th. You have not told me if you think the old time Horseman who has seen both would have been a better judge than the panelist that were selected. Why no comment there. You know I am right and your the one 'BIAS'.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I'm absolutely biased toward MOW. We're all biased toward our favorites. And I don't doubt the old-timers who saw both and felt Secretariat was better. More power to them. Doesn't mean that I agree, or that I think I know more than them. On the contrary I'm a rookie in the sport compared to their knowledge.
Look back to my original posts, I said if Sec and MOW raced on modern tracks I believe it would be very close at every distance. I've also stated many times I could be wrong...
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
You mean to tell me that you cannot type in Eddie Arcaro 'the master' is dead at 81 and read that article by L.A. Times Bill Christine in which Eddie Arcaro said he rated Secretariat the best he ever seen.? Your telling me that article does not exist? Were can I go to read that article that MOW broke that record in a workout? You can't give it to me can you? Its a make-up story like MOW had nightmares for 2 wks. after his loss to Upset. You can never produce any proof but talk.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
btw, in my own words: It's reported that Lucien knew about the abscess BEFORE Secretariat ran and lost with it and decided to run anyway -- any trainer knows if his horse hasn't eaten. That, Secretariat having a fever later, or not being properly trained, all UNACCEPTABLE excuses.
If your horse is on the track your horse is ready to race. Or don't race them.
All the greats had to overcome obstacles. Class doesn't make excuses.
evyn10014 11 months ago
Not done yet with rscarbro/bmblebee/schumann impersonations...
You IDIOTS Kelso ran 6F just as fast as Secretariat as a 3 YEAR OLD!!! And ran 1 5/8ths FASTER and set the WR at 2 MILES KELSO was BETTER than Secretariat. FAGER was BETTER he set the WR for the mile on dirt that has only been equaled and ran 1 1/4 faster as a 4 with Weight for Age you LYING MORON BITCHES living in a FANTASY WORLD.
evyn10014 11 months ago
continuing on with my rscarbro-triplets impersonation: MOW set records in workouts and those STUPID LYING Secretariat IDIOTS won't believe what's in NEWSPAPERS the STUPIDEST ASSES on youtube. Man o War never even allowed to run except ONE race the LAWRENCE when he ran faster than Secretariat did on TURF! Then they say the Turf was knee deep and Sec SWAM his way to the Finish. LIARS and IDIOTS you BITCHES.
evyn10014 11 months ago
rschumann, bbmtge, rscarbro100 (all the same person or clones) here's my response to you -- written like you write people so you'll understand.
You're an ASS full of LIES!!! Man o War TRIPPED at the start of the DWYER and still won he would have gone UNDEFEATED if not for COLLUSION in ONE RACE by the JOCKEY. ALL 2 YEAR OLDS run SHORTER distances you ASSES what kind of IDIOT says otherwise???
Secretariat lost to NOBODIES and his cronies make EXCUSES you're IDIOTS and LIARS and BITCHES!!!
evyn10014 11 months ago
That's funny in another post you said MOW and Secretariat were the two best of all time. Whatever... I've stopped listening to you.
evyn10014 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
constantly going after Sec. The KD was 38 years ago. You wont see that record broken in your lifetime. You are pathetic.
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
All you do is prove you have no class. And worse, you don't care that you have no class.
Secretariat's Derby time will be broken, as will his Preakness time. Both have essentially been equaled.
His Belmont time may well hold up as most horses can't handle distance these days.
I will say there is about a 0% chance another horse will come along and break all three records in capturing the TC. Little versatility and durability in the breed these days.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Here we go again. So simple minded it;s absurd. Sec ran the Preakness with such ease. Turcotte said he could have pulled away from Sham at any time, but he had to think of the Belmont. Only one other horse, officially ran under 2 minutes and barely so. Sham probably ran the 2nd fastest KD. Sec was wide for close to half the Preakness and for 3/4 of the KD. The horse that beat Sec 9 fulrong record was 4 YO and carrying 10 fewer pounds. I guerss you just cant help yourself with the...
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Ahhh... Right. Turcotte said he could have pulled away anytime. Kind of like when Big Cy pointed out that Arcaro let the wraps out on Citation you or one of your cronies called b.s. I love how you argue against the very things you say. PRICELESS.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
You continue to cmeent your reputation as one who simply bald faced lies. how many names do you have oon youtube??? Actually, bitch, you ARE Big CY et al. THAT'S what is truly priceless. I have caught oyu in so many lies that you have to run from video to video. Now that you have been found out, I'm going to make it my mission to let everyone on youtube know who you really are, BITCH!!! BTW..Arcaro said Sec was the fastest horse he'd ever seen.
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Aw, thanks for comparing me to Big Cy, he's got class. All his posts are well reasoned and stated, and without the constant insults, grammatical errors and ranting and raving you've mastered so well.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
You and BigCY are the same person, bitch. Cant you read??? Get it yet??? As stated, you have been caught in so many lies it's pathetic, bitch. But, keep posting. Your stupidity is entertaining.
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Funny, name the comment, the video, and the source. As always, you cant...BigCy!!! LIAR!!!
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
In the Lawrence, MOW ran the 4th quarter in 25 2/5th's...the fifth quarter in 25 2/5th's...the 6th quarter in 25 flat...the final furlong was run in 12 seconds falt...a 24 second pace...yet the fanatics want you to believe he was eased and try to give absurd explanations as to how. The fractions state that, for some reason, MOW was moving faster at the end of the race than in the previous 3 quarters.
bbmtge 11 months ago
Love Kelso but I think MOW made his case quite clearly... but you never know. Maybe?
evyn10014 in reply to DashSmithfield74 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
So many comments on here from bright people who love the sport and have class -- among them Big Cy, duckworth, and even some of the Sec fans...
then there's bbmtge and rscarbro. They're like the bratty little kids no one wanted to play with, so they just yell louder and louder and try to get attention by calling everyone names. ZERO CLASS.
The kids will mark this as spam but you all know who it is and you all know what they're about. They don't belong at the grown-ups table.
evyn10014 11 months ago
You just call me a idiot and you say I have no class. Like I said look at you ownself in the mirror if you got one. Probably can't stand to look at your own face besides anyone else. You & CY are probably one & the same. Both of you write post the same. Are you twins? Same old garbage & lies with both of you.Both of you cannot except Eddy Arcaro statement that Secretariat was better than Citation and the best horse he ever seen. Live with it. He said it was so.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
You're right I did call you that, because I gave you the source for something and you said it didn't exist and I was lying. That's not cool my friend. But I'm sorry for that. Better?
As far as Big CY, I respect his opinions and share some of them, but we have quite different opinions. I believe MOW/Sec/Fager and Kelso are the very best. He'd rate Citation higher I'd say...
One thing Big Cy and I share tho is the belief that any of the best could beat each other on any given day.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
@evyn10014 Excellent job of putting things into perspective ( where is the class ?) For ex, what you just said is considered to be rubbish by all the good 'science' worked out here. Sec has PROVEN with science how much slower MOW was - and is now elevated to FACT @! ..Falling second to Fager or Kelso
- is taken as a BIG lying slap in the face to Sec - just look at his time in workouts.
They have PROVEN that Sec stands alone. And we have proved NOTHING ! (Disgrace)
Duckworth17 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Yeah, I still like ol Sec though as you pointed out he had excellent manners, and a lot of class. It's a big burden for people to consider you immortal -- he was probably pretty happy to retire and chill with the mares.
evyn10014 in reply to Duckworth17 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I think a lot of people say things in the moment... but okay, The Master said Secretariat was the best and I shall take him at his word.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Or you point out the source and article for a record MOW achieved in a workout:
Source: The Sun and The New York Herald, September 3, 1920. "Man o' War Breaks Record in Workout."
1920, Two days before the 13-furlong Lawrence (1 5/8th's) MOW did 12-furlongs with WORKOUT RIDER Clyde Gordon carrying 130 lbs, and ran 2:29 2/5 under STEADY RESTRAINT, setting a new American Record.
And some complete idiot (rscarbro) says it doesn't exist.
Un-real...
evyn10014 11 months ago
Were did you find that information from the N.Y. Hearld on Sept. 30, 1920? Have you got the newspaper from 1920? Did you go to a website or read in a book that he did?. Its awful funny that piece of information is nowhere to be found. Every source that I give it is easy to find, So what if he did run a workout in 2:29 2/5. Thats nothing to compare to Secretariat record breaking workouts. I made a terrible mistake. Secretariat 'Pull Up' time in the Belmont for 1 5/8 mile was 2:37 2/5.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
It's cited in Ours book, which is praised as a meticulously researched book. Just cause you haven't heard it doesn't mean it didn't exist.
Like I said, you're not gonna convince me, I'm not gonna convince you... But see I'm cool with that. Secretariat was a great horse and if you think he's the best that's fine. He might be.
I have an issue with your rudeness. Not your appreciation of Sec, or your general racing knowledge.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Say it doesn't exist that Secretariat ran a 1 5/8 mile 'Pulling Up' in 2:37 2/5. That 3 2/5 faster than MOW time and done it without rasing a sweat. No comparison. Secretariat the faster horse.Say it does no exist that 45 yr. veteran of the DRF Charles Hatton said the tracks of 1973 perhaps only 'ONE' second faster than 1920. Tell me it don't exist Secretariat ran 1 1/8 mile in 1:45 2/5 taking the long route almost 4 seconds faster than MOW ridden hard in the Dwyer. You lose.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Or you point out facts straight from the DRF and you get marked as "spam."
MOW ran faster than Count Fleet (Bloodhorse #5) at 1 mile, 1 3/16 and 1 1/4; > than Citation (BH #3) at 1 mile, 1 1/16, & 1 3/16, > Kelso (BH #4) at 1 1/4 + same time at 1 5/8 with MOW restrained at end; > than Seattle Slew (BH #9) at 1 1/2, The Bid (BH #10) at 1 1/4, and faster than Secretariat (BH #2) at 1 5/8ths.
He set the standard for greatness.
All official DRF times.
evyn10014 11 months ago
No class whatsoever on this page from Secretariat's fans. You point out a fact, like how one of them reverses himself:
I quote RSCHUMANN from 2 months ago: "It's safe to say that both Sec and MOW were the two greatest thoroughbreds of all time and of any nation. Each one contributed something unique to this great sport of horse racing."
(then later Schumann was talking about all the other horses that were better than MOW, laughable)
evyn10014 11 months ago
ps rschumann, you seem okay most of the time. I wasn't referring to you in my comments.
evyn10014 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
MOW ran faster than Count Fleet (Bloodhorse #5) at 1 mile, 1 3/16 and 1 1/4; > than Citation (BH #3) at 1 mile, 1 1/16, & 1 3/16, > Kelso (BH #4) at 1 1/4 + same time at 1 5/8 with MOW restrained at end; > than Seattle Slew (BH #9) at 1 1/2, The Bid (BH #10) at 1 1/4, and faster than Secretariat (BH #2) at 1 5/8ths.
He set the standard for greatness.
All official DRF times.
evyn10014 11 months ago
Dear Alzheimers, I already answered you: 1920, Two days before the 13-furlong Lawrence (1 5/8th's) MOW did 12-furlongs with WORKOUT RIDER Clyde Gordon carrying 130 lbs, and ran 2:29 2/5 under STEADY RESTRAINT, setting a new American Record.
Source: The Sun and The New York Herald, September 3, 1920. Article titled: "Man o' War Breaks Record in Workout."
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Sam Riddle would not let a horse run a 1 1/2 mile workout 2 days before a 1 5/8 mile race. He was so protected of him he would not run him in the Derby and how in the hell can a horse be restrained at the end when he ran his last quarter faster than the previous one. Thats like saying Secretariat was restrained every quarter in his Derby win were in fact he ran every quarter faster than the previous ones. How old are you anyway? Can't you understand logic? Cont.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
It's simple, and Ours book breaks down all the splits meticulously: the quarter before the last in the Lawrence Kummer let MOW take a major breather, then the last quarter he picked it back up -- and as you pointed out he cooked it in an amazing time for such a long race -- but he was eased off at the very end, still achieving a better quarter than the one before.
Am I saying he could have run it faster? Absolutely. Dramatically faster? No, I'm not saying that.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I love it. Slowed down, sped up and whjile runing a faster quarter...slowed down. MOW final furlong was run in 12 seconds. The 1/4 pace was, thus, a full second faster than the previous, yet the horse was slowing down. No sense at all. The notion you are fowarding is that, while in complete control of the race, Kummer decided to ask the horse to perform erratically. While you will deny this, as usual, if the horse did what you claim, that is exaclty what would have happened.
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Mr. bbmtge, what's so incredulous about rating a horse in a long race, then letting the wraps out, then easing off at the very end? That would explain the fractions.
However, even if he wasn't eased, he still ran his final fraction in an ungodly time, and set a record that it took horses like the great Swaps and Kelso to match. So what's your point? His time at 1 5/8ths is unbelievable. Adjust a second for the track (as you yourself have pointed out) -- even more unreal.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
The 12 second final furlong is impressive as are his 3 races in 3 weeks. My point has to do with the constant claims of being eased or under stout restraint. As far as the one second adjustment, you have the wrong guy.
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
That's not what the fractions reflect. Can you not do any research appropriately??? His fraction were steady for 3/4 of a mile and then he ran faster over the final furlong.
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Quibble over red herrings if you want. MOW's time at 1 5/8ths was world class even now on dirt, and that was in 1920 on a slow track.
You say he raced in the most non competitive time in racing? Yet his DRF verified times at 1 3/16ths, 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 (set with ease) would win most of the last 10 years worth of Triple Crowns.
Most of the fans of MOW and other horses give Sec respect... Not sure why you can't do the same for MOW. He was the class of the breed, just like Secretariat.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Actually, if you ever bothered to read the posts here, the average MOW fan argues like a petty child and shows no respect to Sec. Did MOW rin in a noncompetetive era? Yes. The fact that the horses he ran against carried pathetic weight AND produced pathetic times proves that point. Are his fractions fantastic? Yes. But, as you have never acknowledged this point, to run primarily match races against horses that have no chance cannot compare the the modern era
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
correct, MOW's competition not up to Secretariat's -- just as Secretariat's wasn't up to Fagers. Point taken. Moving on...
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I've defended Secretariat many times and have stated clearly I believe he's one of the very best.
Where we differ is that I believe the top horses are extremely close, and could have gone back and forth on any given day.
If I've been guilty of being argumentative, it's that I find it humorous that people such as yourself call other people "fools" "bitches" "asses" and worse, while touting how brilliant they are while making speculative arguments.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I also stated in another post that if MOW ran in the 70's, he would have lost more, just like Secretariat, due to greater competition, etc, but that in my opinion he would have excelled anyway just as Secretariat did. He ran in full races as a 2-year old and was undefeated there but for a fluke. He would have excelled in loaded fields as well -- all the greats did.
So obviously I acknowledge the statements you're making.
I'm all for a good discussion. But trading insults gets old.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
You complete foolishness never ceases to amaze me. MOW did not run in full races as a 2YO. First and foremost, he never ran more than 6 furlongs. GET IT, YET???
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
To quote Shawn Carter "...He who does not feel me is not real to me therefore he doesn't exist, so poof... vamoose son of a bitch."
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
The best thing you've said yet is "vamoose". Take your lies and your bullshit somewhere else under one of your other youtube names, bitch.
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
That's Jay-Z, telling you to beat it gramps.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
At 3YO...MOW averaged 1 1/2 opponents. You are the biggest ASS on youtube. You, BigCY et al and whatever other names you come here under. 5/8th's of a mile and straight compared to 13 horses at 1 1/4 or 1 5/8th's miles makes you a complete ASS. You have been caught in so many LIES it's pathetic. Now you go back to playing "would of, should of, could of". More bullshit, more LIES.
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Further , the energy expenditure of the large field and Sec rynning wide in racves where he is actually running further than the actula race distance e.g KD is something MOW NEVER encountered. Finally, take the '73 MC where 4 horses run a 1:09 and change fraction. Sec...WIDE...sets a WR under a hand ride with RR at 1:46 and Cougar ii at 1:46 and 1/5th. MOW never hade to deal with this, either.
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
sleep tight grumpy.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Nack also mention that on Belmont day the track was slowing by 4/5 of a second. It was slowing down a week before the Belmont. Secretariat faced more competiton than Fager ever seen. No horse has ever beaten R.R. 1 3/16 mile record. That record still stand clear of any time. Fager mile has been tied. Yet Secretariat unoffically ran a 1 3/16 mile in the M.C. about 1:51 2/5 'Pulling Up' beating R.R. by over 3 lengths. We all know how fast that Peagsus was don't we?
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
If Secretariat ran a 2:28 4/5 1 1/2 mile like MOW did in the Lawerence no doubt he would had no problem at all running better than a 12 flat last furlong. Please remember lady that Secretariat ran a unoffical 1 5/8 pulling up in 2:37 2/5. Can't you understand logic. Image what his time for the 1 5/8 mile would have been if not pulled up. Would you at least say 2:36 & small change? What do ya say lady with some common sense of course. MOW would be 20 lengths behind or more.Cont.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Lets give MOW the benifit of the doubt. We know Secretariat was completely pullled up for one furlong in the Belmont. Lets say MOW was too and yet gfve MOW another 2 full seconds. Thats a 2:38 4/5 seconds time still 1 2/5 slower than Secretariat. And the all know Secretariat could have ran that 1 5/8 in 1:36 & small change if not pulled up and the know MOW was not pulled up for a whole furlong like Secretariat was. What else can we give you lady? Can you sink that into your brain?
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
2 other points...pt MOW in the modern era in a medium to large filed with horses who can compete with him and those fractions you refer to flat doisappear. Also, he never ran on a compromised track. At 3 YO, all track were fast, wiht one rated good. One sloppy at 2 YO. Very slow time and short distance. Sec ran in mud at 2 and 3 and destroyed veteran and older turf champions twice.
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
3 points to your 2 points. 1) MOW ran in full fields as a 2 year old and dominated -- also often carrying heavier weights than Sec carried as a 3. So his ability to win in a group is proven. 2) Sec's best race, the Belmont, was essentially a match race as well. 3) It's documented, MOW at the Potomac Handicap, the track was deep and cupped and so unstable Riddle considered pulling the colt -- and they gave him 138 lbs. But he carried it like a champ and won.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
And finally, Sec ran against better competition, but his margin at the Belmont meant no other horse did better than I believe a 2:30 on a lightning fast track -- not much competition there.
You never saw Affirmed dust Alydar by 31, or Fager mop the floor with Damascus by double digits...
When horses completely outclass the competition you get a blowout: ie MOW, Secretariat in the Belmont, Count Fleet demo'd all three TC races (25 length win in Belmont).
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Secretariat Belmont was not a lightning fast track. The true variant was .09. As you know yourself Russel Cardenas explained the DRF error and Andy Beyer used a .09 variant in his speed figure. Also Cardenas said Twice a Prince & My Gallant times were about 2:28 2/5. Thats faster than MOW times at 1 1/2 mile carring 8 lbs more. So don't say these horses were chumps.Get your stop watch out & start it when Big Red hits the wire & stop it when Twice a Prince hits his wire. Cont.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
It's a documented fact my man, I didn't make it up. Take it up with the newspapers that reported it. Once MOW did that any other owners who were considering the race promptly pulled their entries, so Riddle's friends entered a "barn pony" so the fans wouldn't howl.
Jeffords made Riddle promise MOW wouldn't embarrass her colt but instead MOW torched the track, won by 100 lengths just for the hell of it, and set a WR.
That's a horse -- like Secretariat -- that loved to run.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
And you are calling me Atzheimers. Take a look in the mirror. There is nowhere in Man o' War biographies, or Ours and Bowen books ever mention that so call 1 1/2 mile American record he suppose to have set 2 days before the Lawerence race.No doubt it would have been written in both of their books if it happen I believe the longest workout Man 0' War ever had was a 1 1/8 mile not quite sure. What offical time would Secretariat time would have been if that Belmont was a 1 5/8 mile race?
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Pointed out the source multiple times to you and everyone on here.
You should concentrate more on polite discourse instead of insults and people might enjoy talking with you. You have a lot of knowledge about racing and make a lot of great points which I've complimented you on in the past, but you just can't behave yourself like a normal person. It's a shame.
(now you'll say what's a shame is that blah blah blah and insult me... you can't help yourself)
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
We already know Secretariat ran that 1 5/8 mile 'Pulling Up the last furlong in 2:37 3/5. What does that tell you idiot? You can't comapre their 1 5/8 mile races because of different track conditions and Eddie Maple was riding him as well. He never tried for any speed record or let him run his own race like Turcotte did in the Belmont but Secretariat in that 5 furlong workout was the fastest at that track any horseman ever could remember.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
It's the same garbage Riddle tried before the the Dwyer, saying MOW set a miole record in a workoput. Dorothy Ours falt stated it didn't happen. You are so full of shit, it's pathetic.
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
So you're calling a well-respected writer and researcher a liar, when she's cited her sources... Wow. I guess you really do live in an alternate universe.
It's getting late in the real world so I'm going to have to put this scintillating conversation to bed.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
If you're going to compare their races compare the Belmont and the Lawrence. Neither had any competition, both set WR's and both were allowed to run. Secretariat had his best performance and so did MOW. DRF states MOW was eased at the end, DRF states Secretariat was Ridden Out.
A hand ride in both "races," with neither jockey using a whip. Kummer didn't even carry one.
In the Belmont sec ran faster than MOW at 1 1/2 and in the Lawrence ran faster than Sec at 1 5/8ths.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
NO contest who was better. Secretariat by far. Easy goer was better tham MOW for fuck sakes!!
thehonzie1 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I quote RSCHUMANN from 2 months ago: "It's safe to say that both Sec and MOW were the two greatest thoroughbreds of all time and of any nation. Each one contributed something unique to this great sport of horse racing."
evyn10014 in reply to thehonzie1 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Gang...I guarantee this bitch is either evyn, diana or Big CY. She has to come in under different names and spew the same old illogical bullshit. This is really getting funny. What a little bitch. Let 's she if she answers the questions put to her.
bbmtge 11 months ago
gang we gotta little teef thinks a FILLY could run faster than our boy. godverdomme! this has to end she must big cy in disguise. omg
theotherdoutzen in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
ahhh so youre not just a jerk you a sexist jerk wow sounds like u threatened by women?
see ruffians time at 6F and secretariats time at 6F she was right there with him.
lot of champion fillies lately if u havent noticed from RA to Goldi an Zarkava, beating the boys left to right.
guess secretariat wouldnt lose to a gelding either right? oh wait, he did...
theotherdoutzen in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Funny, both Ruffian and Prove Out ran faster fractions than MOW. Do you realize you just made a fool of yourself???
bbmtge in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
name the races and the fractions. in one race? so? all? NO
theotherdoutzen in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
hmmmm?
theotherdoutzen in reply to BigPetrov (Show the comment) 11 months ago
This little bitch is the same as all of the other MOW fans to a name. The basic pattern is to 1) say "it is because I say it is" 2) regardless of other horses,plural, much faster fractions; they say MOW "could of" run faster to the tune of 15 - 30 lengths 3) MOW never ran, he galloped or cantered...funny how the DRF and the racing fractions in several race completely contradict this 4) simply do not answer questions with logic.
bbmtge 11 months ago
"this little bitch?" u should think about what u say. u just make it clear youre a loser. you calling someone a bitch about a horse... get a life little man
theotherdoutzen in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Correct "bitch". A bitch does what you do. Proclamations and false statements. No facts. So...let's see if you can answer the questions I put to you. Need them repeated or do you want to continue with the aforementioned PROCLAMATIONS??? WHAT'S IT GOING TO BE???
bbmtge in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
lol lil internet bully with no life you wind up like a clock and cant stop... no one doesnt like secretariat hes just a horse they just dont like u. write more flikker we love the show! I=l
theotherdoutzen in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
retard? how many languages do u speak and write?
theotherdoutzen in reply to BigPetrov (Show the comment) 11 months ago
lol thats some first rate detective work, u a stalker? have lived in london, u? but am not from uk. would never say am from states. a few good cities throw the rest in the ocean.
theotherdoutzen in reply to BigPetrov (Show the comment) 11 months ago
sea the stars isnt my horse, I'm for kelso ----> am telling you europeans dont care for american horses or records, not my fault u cant understand
theotherdoutzen in reply to BigPetrov (Show the comment) 11 months ago
It is very clear that Secretariat had the stamina like no other. Going that super fast pace for a 1 1/2 mile. Running thoses kind of fractions & slowing down hardly none to speak off. All experts thought he would collaspe in the strecth. Thats why they were speechless plus when he hit the teletimer in 2:24 flat on dirt in which no horse in history never done within 1 4/5 seconds on a dirt track & at the time by 2 3/5 seconds. Done it without rasing a sweat so said Kent Hollingsworth.
rscarbro100 11 months ago 2
KELSO better in every way, do it all on any track any conditions and better endurance, would have run secretariat in the ground, 2 mile WR 5 times horse of the year. secretariat retire to make money in the barn before he keep losing to no names.
theotherdoutzen in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I guess you know more than Eddie Arcaro the man that rode Kelso. Just another post proving how dumb you are. Read Bill Chrisitne article titled Eddie Arcaro The Master is dead at 81. You got no case at all. We know who was best because Eddie told us so. Go & swallow, shit or whatever with that statement of Arcaro. Is people going to believe your opinion or Eddie's? Your a complete joke.
rscarbro100 in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
eddie was being polite he know Kelso the best. he never ride secretariat
theotherdoutzen in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
When Secretariat gained that 2 seconds on MOW in just a 1/4 mile tells you MOW was tiring a little & Secretariat was just getting started. Remember MOW was ridden hard & never ran such fractions as he did in the Dwyer race. MOW was slowing so much Kummer had to crack the whip to his ass to pull away from Grier in the final moments of the race. He was still losing time to Secretariat real fast who had a 1 1/2 mile race. After 1 1/2 miles Secretariat still not tired according to Woodie Broun.
rscarbro100 11 months ago
kummer didnt even carry a whip when man o war set WR at 1 5/8 in lawrence (faster than secretariat ran 1 5/8 on turf) and his fractions picked up, so saying mow have no endurance is stupid. do the math and you might find 1 5/8 longer than 1 1/2...
theotherdoutzen in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Your a complete dumbass. As we already told you the condition of that Woodbne track. It is well documented. It is very easy to understand if Secretariat was running on a fast track at Belmont & was clocked 'Pulling Up' another furlong passing the 1 5/8 post in 2:37 3/5 is miles ahead of MOW's time running the 1 5/8 from the shute & not 'Pulling Up'. If that don't tell you Secretariat is faster then you know no 'MATH' & have no common sense at all. Cont.
rscarbro100 in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
You tell me what other horse in history that would need a whip in his Lawerence race? You need not to go further than to look at the only horse he raced against. Or was Hoodwink a donkey?
rscarbro100 in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Comment removed
Author withheld
By the time Secretariat went through the 1 1/8 post he was there in 1:46 2/5. MOW just finishing his Dwyer race with the crack of the who finished it in 1:49 1/5. Now Secretariat was 2 4/5 seconds ahead of MOW & still had a long way to go. With Secreatriat running with ease & never a whip taken to his ass & no horse to pressure him was still walking away from MOW by lengths who was running for his life away from Grier. It tells a story that Secretariat was the 'Tremendous Machine".
rscarbro100 11 months ago
Everyone knows MOW was ridden hard in the Dwyer and everyone knows Secretariat was just hand ridden in his Belmont racing only against himself nothing else to urge him on. As Pat Day said with the least of encouragement. The fastest fractions ever done by MOW was in the Dwyer race. He was ahead of Secretariat at the 1/2 post by 1/5 of a sec. & ahead of him by 1/5 at the 3/4 pole. At the mile post Secretariat was 1 4/5 seconds ahead of MOW. In 1/4 mile Secretariat made up 2 sec. on him. Cont.
rscarbro100 11 months ago
I could not have said to better myself my good man. These people are unreal to even mention Sea the Stars & Ribot with the likes of Secretariat. Its like comparing Pee Wee Herman to King Kong. These idiots are all amongst us. It never fails to amaze me the dumbasses we have in this world. I truly believe they live in a insane asylum & somehow got to a computer. There is no way else that I can explain it.
rscarbro100 in reply to BigPetrov (Show the comment) 11 months ago
My daughter bought me the Secretariat movie. It sucked. One of the worst movies I had ever seen. What a joke. What a injustice to the greatest thoroughbred to ever blaze a track. There should have been a documentary about him done some yrs. ago when some of the old time track horseman were still around. Eddy Arcaro would have been a good one to do it. He would have left no doubt what this horse was made of & the true things of the whole matter. The CY & Kelso fans would be weeping.
rscarbro100 11 months ago
Tell me just one old time horseman who has seen both that said MOW was better than Secretariat on record theotherdoutzen. I bet you can't but know you sure you can made-up some names with absolutely no proof at all. Thats the norm for you & other MOW fans. One of your good buddies said MOW carried weights oin his legs. I guess you believe that too. I can name 7 of them that said Secretariat the better. You know shit, the experts that seen both knows and never was asked to vote.
rscarbro100 11 months ago
MOW ran only 3 times carring over 126 as a 3 yr. ld. Ran a mile at 135 lbs. in a donkey time of 1:41 3/5. 129 lbs in the Travers in 2:01 4/5 beating Upset by 2 1/2 lengths. Beat Wildar in the Potomac carring 138 lbs by only 1 1/2 length in a donkey time fo 1:44 3/5.. What does that prove? He was the greatest of all time. His world records carring 126 lbs were nowhere to Secretariat times and Secretariat ran them with just as much 'EASE' as MOW at about the same weight.
rscarbro100 11 months ago
man o war win his races in a gallop eased up, just workouts. set world records in gallops. all easy. secretariat have to fight to win the derby and preakness, no comparison.
theotherdoutzen in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Yes, truly amazing. Again, I take nothing away from MOW. People must have been amazed at his fractions. They have stood the test of time; he us probabvly the first, true, G1 thoroughbred. However...when you run the small field (average number of opponents at 3YO was 1 1/2), run whatever line you want, against horses who have no chance then...you are completely removed from the dynamic that was in the decades to follow as to uniform competition in the setting of the larger field.
bbmtge in reply to BigPetrov (Show the comment) 11 months ago
drugs arent an argument... there a reality.
theotherdoutzen in reply to BigPetrov (Show the comment) 11 months ago
When making an accusation, the burden is on you to PROVE your point. Fact is...you cannot.
bbmtge in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
You need a review of basic logic. "If some, then all", especially the ones you want to pick is beyond flawed. There is zero logic to your attempt at making a point. Try, again.
bbmtge in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
youre naive. owners like winning. r u in penny's inner circle? no. you have no idea. and plenty of drugs dont risk fertility one is lasix. u all act like u know the owners of these horses, funny cause u have no idea just how much drugs are in every sport. lol.
what NFL playerz on drugs? many. basketball? lots. tour de france? doping everywhere. horse racing -- lots of drugs.
u even know what lasix is for without looking it up? youre livin in a disney fairy tale.
theotherdoutzen in reply to BigPetrov (Show the comment) 11 months ago
A very good point. Those Europeans are pretty much like the MOW fans. The all are jealous of him and never comment on those amazing workouts or have no knowledge of them. When he walked around the dogs in some of his workouts they were faster than MOW. He left all the veteran horseman shaking their heads in disbelief. Most stake horse would fragment 'fall apart' if they ran workouts like he did so said the experts. Not many trainers dare not to run their horses that fast
rscarbro100 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
right, as a 'european' I can assure no european jealous of secretariat lmfao... triple crown in us means nothing to europe they have the most prestigious races in the world... the derby, 2000 guineas, l'arc de triomphe... americans dont even know champions like ribot and sea the stars exist in your little disneyland
theotherdoutzen in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Can't help but say Secretariat superseded Man of War, because of the 31 lengths in his final race....and no one will ever repeat his time or margin of win.
4wirldpeas 11 months ago
wtf? you get that was his final race by disney? wasnt his final race and he got beaten fair and square by prove out after, other horses have won races by bigger margins, belmont aint the only race or even most important race, 1 1/2 times faster by lots of horses.
man o war > secretariate & KELSO > both
theotherdoutzen in reply to 4wirldpeas (Show the comment) 11 months ago
In the winter of 1972 at Hialeah Park Turcotte hopped aboard Secretariat weight 141 lbs with heavy boots and all. He clicked around the track running just a fluid as any weight he ever carried. The MOW fans want to talk about Man 0' War carrying so much weight which in fact when he did carried much less weight by 8 lbs he still could not run nowhere near the times of Secretariat. Totally a non-factor. They got nothing left to prove MOW was better but claiming he took drugs which is a lie.
rscarbro100 11 months ago
U such a clown nice try!!!! u dont know anything about training listen up all racehorses ridden by workout riders that weigh more than race-fit jockies. man o war carried his weights in the only place it matter the race. lmfao
u wanna talk weight mow fager forego damascus you name it so many horses prove it secretrait never prove anything with weight
theotherdoutzen in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
...and exactly WHAT did MOW prove while carrying weight??? Can't wait for this "reply".
bbmtge in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
that he could do it
theotherdoutzen in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
His weight never matter when it came to world records. Never set one over 126 lbs. He only set an American or track record carring a few lbs. more & when he carried 138 for a very short distance of a 1 1/16 mile his time was a joke compared to what Secretariat and many horses ran for that distance. If you know anything extra weight does not slow a good class horse down if the track is fast. Only on soft or off tracks going long distance. The handicappers can tell you that. Cont.
rscarbro100 in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
You make a mountain out of a mole hill talking abourt carring extra weight. Its a no brainer when it comes to top notch class horses.Thats something your to dumb to know. Just like the Slew fans when Exceller beat him in the JGC. That track was like a lake. Why, because the ground below it was so hard it could not take any more water thus a quick track. Secretariat ran his unbelievable times in 'MUD' Prove Out beat a horse that did not train for 2 wks. for a 1 1/2 mile. race
rscarbro100 in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
My main man...I do not recall MOW coming within 3 seconds of Prove Out at 1 1/2 miles. It's Prove Out by 15 in an actual race versus a walkover!!! Keep up the great work!!!
bbmtge in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
you prove your stupidity with every comment ---> compare prove outs time running flat out to man o warz time when he wuz eased off an won in a gallop?
theotherdoutzen in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Man 0' war ran the next to last furlong in the Lawerence in just over 12.5 seconds and ran the last furlong in 12 flat and your telling me he was eased off in a gallop at the end.. What planet did you come from. Another error by the DRF in which Russel Cardenas clearly pointed out in his article Man 0' War vs. Secretariat revisted. Again you are a complete duimbass. I'm still laughing in the floor over this one.
rscarbro100 in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Funny, Prove Out was running in stride with no "rubber legs". If you think that MOW was eased to the tune of 15 lengths...now that is funny. You have absolutely no argument. other than to put out flase claims.
bbmtge in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
OK. Now we'll get into specifics to see if you'll continue to play dodgeball as you have refused to answer points with anything other than generalizations and false claims. Let's take the 9 furlong Dwyer...tell me the 3/4 fraction...then tell me the time over the final 3/8th's of a mile. We'll start with this.
bbmtge in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Exactly what 1/4 mile fraction time registers as a "gallop"???
bbmtge in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Here we go again..."all racehorses" train with heavy weight. What source are you citing and what horses are you citing. As always, more proclamations.
bbmtge in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
LOL u expose yourself u never been to a track and seen how they train do u?
workout riders hardly ever actual race jockey, new jockies or old and they ride with more weight on purpose u dont know anything not out of a book this is no big secret
theotherdoutzen in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I actually worked at a track, fool. Now answer the question. Cite your source. If you don't have a source, then name when and where you saw this, if you did. Do you still not understand logic, sources, etc??? Do you still not understand the difference between verifiable and ridiculous proclamation. You cant back up anything that you have written. How can you be that stupid???
bbmtge in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
nah I dont believe u. if u did youd know better. sources would be my own eyes.
theotherdoutzen in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
It is so funny how you canot, logically, substantiate ANYTHING that you write. In your fantsay world, MOW runs as fast as you want him to, as fast as you SAY he could run. That is how you avoid logical debate. Now, again , for the THIRD TIME, let's break down, form the general to the detail(s)...WHAT WAS THE TIME OF THE FINAL 3/8th's MILE IN THE DWYER COMPARED TO THE 3/4 FRACTION??? STOP AVOIDING FACTS, BITCH!!!
bbmtge in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Further, who cares what you beleive. Now, you, quite belatedly cite your "source"as your own eyes. So, where and who did you see run in training with 140 pounds???
bbmtge in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Careful who you call a fool cause now you look like one. Not sure what doutzen means by "heavy weight" but race horses ROUTINELY workout with HEAVIER weights.
You want sources? Steve Haskin (2009). Dr. Fager: Thoroughbred Legends:
"Weighing more than 150 pounds, Marrero (WORKOUT RIDER) provided enough weight to keep the Doc's works under control... Through the deluge (RAIN), Fager breezed his five furlongs in :59 under no pressure at all from Marrero...
How can YOU be that stupid?
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 10 months ago
I'n now convinced that you are bipolar. 2 points here; with respect to BH 100, if you want to be so invested in a vote, feel free. I could care less where the horses are placed in a vote, especially by a s-called panel that does not qualify their votes. If you want to believe in "appeals to so-called higher authority", again, feel free. I believe in exhaustive research and a horse's performances...this is where you have been shot down every time.
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
This is too funny. You are so deperate, as well as stupid, that you are posting agaisnt posts that I never replied to. Now you are defaulting to the general, as wlasy, and taking a statement that Haskin made and assigning is to ALL RACEHORSES. The stupidity of your bullshit is always entertaining. You are so desperate that you'll say anything to attempt a reversal. Funny how you can't stay on topic, routinely LIE and switch back and forth from horse to horse. Dr. Fager was a phenom..
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
I replied to a response you made to a friend about horses not carrying heavier weights in workouts, which they often do. You called it a lie and wanted a source. I gave you one. End of story.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Okay...so we have the bipolar and ADD issues. Now, your level of stupidity enters another realm. I NEVER made a comment that horse(s) did not carry extra weight in workouts. Are you really to the point that you cant even friggin' READ??? The comment asked the reader to source their comment THAT ALL HORSES WORKED OUT WITH HEAVIER WEIGHT. GET IT???!!! That perosn never replied. You reply with a well-known comment by Haskin. My Lord, your stupidity knows absolutely no bounds!!!
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Stop being a baby and just admit you don't know what the hell you're talking about when it comes to how horses are trained and drop it.
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Gee, it's the bipolar, ADD idiot. You've lost at every turn, you can't even accurately read commentary, you bald-face LIE, you don't know the specifics of tracks, you make claims about horses that are false. Now we see the suptidity oozing through, again. You LIED about my comments, LIED again and now you are so lost that you have to stick with a LYING though process. And when you are bested, all you can do is retreat to a 4 year old mindset with the drivel you just posted. LOLOLOL
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
...but DR. Fager never accompished, at 3YO, what Sec did. Damascus doesn't even come close. Please feel proud of finding a quote that does not relate to anything I've ever said.LOL. Keep it coming, asshole.
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
still waiting for your response to this:
Careful who you call a fool cause now you look like one. Not sure what doutzen means by "heavy weight" but race horses ROUTINELY workout with HEAVIER weights.
Steve Haskin (2009). Dr. Fager: Thoroughbred Legends: "Weighing more than 150 pounds, Marrero (WORKOUT RIDER) provided enough weight to keep the Doc's works under control... Through the deluge (RAIN), Fager breezed his five furlongs in :59 under no pressure at all from Marrero...
Hmmm?
evyn10014 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Suggest you check again, STUPID. Try to stay on topic relative to what I am saying. If you can't keep track, take some more medication. ADD, much???
bbmtge in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Look, the idiot is back. As stated, I worked at a trotter/pace track and a flat track...when it was called Laurel Race Track. Further, a boyhood friend of mine was an exercise boy and 2 jockeys live in my development. Further, they all knew Chris McCarron when he raced at Laurel. The point is that excerice boys vary widely in weight. You continue to make a comeplte ASS of yourself in that Dr. Fager and damscus were weight carriers at 4 YO....
bbmtge in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Only the ASSHOLES who know nothing about horseracing continue with this line about Sec carrying weight when 3 YO's stopped carrying weight.
bbmtge in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 10 months ago
u claiming u know what any horse is on or not is the lie flikker
theotherdoutzen in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Nice try. YOU are the one making a claim about being ON drugs. The notion of "prove you are not", again, is zero sum logic. You are no more than a total ASS.
bbmtge in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
March 29, 1973 a day before Secretariat was a 3 yr. old was 'JOGGED' around Aqueduct with Turcotte aboard with a total weight of 130 lbs. going the wrong way around for the mile in 1:35 2/5 & "eased" another furlong in 1:48 flat. Source: Teddy Cox DRF. Plainly put Secretariat could run over 1 second faster than MOW going the wrong way just "JOGGING' carring 130 lbs than MOW could going all out in the Dwyer in 1:49 1/5 carring 126 lbs. Weight was a non-factor with Peagsus.
rscarbro100 11 months ago
It never fails my good man. All the MOW fans see after they lose the argument make the claim Secretariat was on drugs. They absolutely cannot come up with any facts at all that he did take them. Why, because they are none. They also say he stumble in the Dwyer and no one seen it because of the trees. Now thats a good one. We are dealing with 'KIDS' here crying like babies over their GOD Man 0' War with lies. Its hard telling what they will come up with next.
rscarbro100 in reply to BigPetrov (Show the comment) 11 months ago
drugs n faster tracks and lower weights for secretariat n man o war still the better horse, he run fractions just as fast before reigned in. you comparing a drugged up athlete to a natural one your a fool. its not the horses fault its jus the game
theotherdoutzen 11 months ago
That 32 3/5 was a record by 2/5 of a second at the time and one 1/4 split was done in 21 1/5. Thats 2 seconds off the world record. Secretariat was still a 2 yr. old at the time & still growing.. You will never hear any MOW fans telling you this. If MOW done that they would be jumping off the empire state building telling about it. Watson the official clocker in the tower clocked him with the teletimer in 32 3/5 as well. 44 4/5 seconds pulling up for the half mile. WOW
rscarbro100 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
"Oh my God," was Laurin's alarming reaction when he checked his own split-second watch that actually showed the colt going a second slower at both posts. The corps of clockers on hand, however, insisted that their watches all recorded the same time. The trial at first had Laurin visibly irritated but after Secretariat cooled out in normal style and ate his 11 a.m. lunch without missing an oat, the personable French-Canadian trainer relaxed. Cont.
rscarbro100 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
By Teddy Cox (March 17, 1973):
Honed razor sharp by a sensational three-eighths in :32 3/5 and pronounced "better than ever," by a confident but somewhat nervous Lucien Laurin, Secretariat, launches his 1973 campaign here Saturday..Secretariat was limbered up by a series of gallops, then Wednesday morning he electrified railbrids and clockers with a phenomenal trial that found him sizzling three-eighths in :32 3/5, after which he was eased a half in :44 4/5. Cont.
rscarbro100 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Forgot to mention that the turf at Woodbine is very thick and very deep.
bbmtge 11 months ago
Comment removed
Author withheld
Your so correct my good man. You tell the truth. They are facts. I like to mention to the MOW fans when MOW ran the Dwyer fast track he was ridden hard & drew away with a crack from the whip, Fractions were 46, 1:09.3/5, 1:36 & finished with a slow time of 1:49 1/5. Secretariat much faster in 'MUD' in a workout not ridden hard. He was not urged to go faster at all like MOW had to be to beat Grier with that crack from the whip on a fast track. Absolutely no camparison. Secretariat faster.
rscarbro100 in reply to bbmtge (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I trust the the impeccable rscarbro and rcschumann are doing well!!! I further trust that evyn and company, same person???, are posting the same tired crap.
bbmtge 11 months ago
final furlong was at a 24 second pace per quarter. The previous 2 quarters were run at a bit over 25 seconds each. Again, an impressive fraction, but....he was not eased to produce that time.
bbmtge 11 months ago
2:37 and change. Thus, with respect to MOW 1 5/8th's race...same track, same surface. Finally, for those who say that MOW was eased in his 1 5/8th's race, the official time contradicts that. In his final furlong, he was running at about a one second per 1/4 pace than the previous 2 quarters...actually, quite impressive.
bbmtge in reply to BigPetrov (Show the comment) 11 months ago
FYI...Sec 1/58th race was at Woodbine. That track is irregularly shaped and the surface uneven. Some folks think that grass is automatically faster than dirt. Woodbine is a notoriously slow track made that much slower, in Sec race, by it being soaked AND by the fact that the humidity was 100%, thick fog, a mixture of snow and rain and roughly 40 degrees. From memory, Sec was in the furthest (13th??) post position. The better comparison is Sec Belmont as, pulling up, he ran...
bbmtge in reply to BigPetrov (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I still have the magazines where Sec was on the cover.
redbrian3655 11 months ago
its called weight for age mr. race expert
theotherdoutzen in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Your are right my good man. I have mention this many times and of course the MOW fans never did. They just tell what they want you to hear. They all know Secretariat is the better but never in their life they will. Sore losers and no nothing about horse racing. They love to hear tall tales about MOW and take them for the gospel. Sad but true.
rscarbro100 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
man o war the top horse of the xperts nothing to be sore about if your a fan. secretariat people talk more about cuz of a disney movie but real fanz know whats up
theotherdoutzen in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Why would one be sore after 7 panelist of none who ever seen Man 0' War can call him best. Tell me about that one. Your sore because Secretariat could run faster than MOW could ever do. The experts were the ones that seen them both run. Seeing is believing and no fairly tles about it. Name me one who has seen both said MOW was better. Good luck and no make up any names please. I'm to smart for that good buddy,
rscarbro100 in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
you got a special luv for secretariat dont you flikker?
theotherdoutzen in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
why wuz secretariat so inconsistent after the belmont? obvious same reason other endurance atheltes are inconsitent its called drugs people you peak for some races not others
theotherdoutzen 11 months ago
I doubt Sec was on steroids. Maybe Lasix.
evyn10014 in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
u have no idea nobody knows what any horse on or not
theotherdoutzen in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
man o war carry more weight at 1 5/8ths race than secretariat and run faster. when did secretariat carry 138 pds on a shitty track?never
JOKERS man o war carry 130 pds 6 times as a 2yr old secretariat never carry a pound over 126 as a 3yr old what a joke compare these two man o war better in every way he never have an off day or get sick or have any excuses he just win and win and win and WIN
theotherdoutzen 11 months ago
man o war carry 126 for 1 5/8ths in the Lawrence and his record never beaten just equaled he carry 138 in the potomac handicap on a track u wouldn't race a donkey on.
sick of the comparisons cuz there aint any
theotherdoutzen in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
read about the well documented Canadian
Championship in Toronto where where Eddie Maple rode him to a 6 lengths
victory over Big Spruce. That was his final race, and it was run in a
downpour, and with the turf being knee deep after a week of rain, and
all that against a 25 miles an hour wind. It was so bad that you could
hardly see the back stretch. Secretariat could have easily ran it in less than 2:40 flat if asked by Maple.
rscarbro100 in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
The track was rated as "FAST" when MOW ran in the Potomac. Where is your source that track was not fit to run a donkey on? Its all made up stories. A very short 1 1/16 mile race And MOW could not run it nowhere near a 1:40 iin which Dr, Fager could have ran in 139 flat carring only 4 lbs less than MOW. Give me a break. Quit living in a dream world.
rscarbro100 in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
70s the golden age of steroids and most drugs not illegal in horseracing did u know that? steroids not even illegal in most races today and not in the 70s and lasix. secretrait and other horses not tested for many drugs just a few.
man o war never take a drug didnt need them was all natural to compare is a laugh you put him against any horse in any time under equal conditions and he break their heart and soul secretariat cry like a baby if he meet man o war on the track
theotherdoutzen 11 months ago
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Author withheld
secretariat fans clownz talk about weight? man o war carry more weight as a 2 year old than secretrait carry in his whole career, man o war never defeated as a three year old, secretariats last races he lose more than he win wuz on the decline, secretariat race on the best tracks man o war race on old tracks, secretariat race in age of drugs that werent even envented when man o war race.
secretariat overrated mow/kelso/fager/&maybe count fleet better.
theotherdoutzen 11 months ago
You got that right my good man. Almost 5 sec. carring 8 lbs more. Did you also know out of the 11 races MOW ran as a 3 yr. old 6 of them races he ran against "ONE' horse each race. Absolutely no competition to even speak of. Holly Hudges made the statement when he beat Sir Baton that Sir Barton was already wash-up sore hoofs and all. No doubt MOW was ahead of his time but who did he beat? Right, nobody. I might add Sir Barton was the "ONLY odler horse he ever ran against.
rscarbro100 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
The MOW fans just love to talk about those so called heavy weights he carried but always fail to mention those light weights he also carried when he broke records. Why is that I wonder. Are they trying to hide something & think we do not know that. Thats right, Secretariat ran that 1 1/2 mile carring 8 lbs more than MOW when he set his 1 1/2 mile record and those MOW fans better not forget it. They get mad at me when I mention it. (smile) The CY fans do too when I mention Eddie.
rscarbro100 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Count fleet trainer said Count Fleet would beat secretariat's ass does that mean he could have? who cares what arcaro said did he ever ride secretariat no he just watch him from the stands like anyone else and i bet in private he say Kelso could have whipped secretariat too especially at distance. kelso run 6F same speed as secretariat as a 3 and set 2 mile World Record so whose more versatile huh hmmmm? Kelso that's who, 5 TIME HOY
theotherdoutzen in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Your full of shit and must be Evyn here again because you all say the same thing. What you saying is no one watching from the stands can judge a horse but only jockies who ride them. What a joke.What else do you expect a jockey to say for his own horse but not Arcaro. He was not bias. He told it like it was. He told Christine Secretariat better than Kelso. Who was he scared of when he told him that. He had no ties to any horse.You can't stand the truth of the matter.
rscarbro100 in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Comment removed
Author withheld
Well that's insulting. My spelling and grammar is impeccable. I mean 'are' impeccable.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
ha you must be shumman cuz you say the same thing --> secretariats trainer said ruffian would beat him you clownz -- oh but he wuz just being nice right --> just like arcaro wuz just being polite u should try it maybe??
theotherdoutzen in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
If your were smart enough about what he said you would also know he retracted that statement. Laurin knew Ruffian could not have carried Secretariat water bucket and you know it as well. Your were not even born when Secretariat ran. I was 25 & knew most what all the experts said about him. They told me he ran the Belmont with so much ease they were speechless and that he was better than Man 0' War. They need not have to tell me that I could see most of that myself.Cont.
rscarbro100 in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
A horse like Secretariat who came off a very serious illiness even before the Whitney stakes and had only 2 wks. of training with just 4 workouts yet broke a world record with ease taking the long route & was timed another furlong passing the 1 1/4 post in 1:57 4/5 tells more about his greatness than the Belmont race.. It is not a fairly tale. It was well documented. Andy Beyer quoted he was not in top form like he was in his T.C. races. Cont.
rscarbro100 in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Secretariat on 28 July on a 'Sloppy Track" ran a mile workout in fractions of 45 2/5, 1:09 1/5, 1:21 3/5 And 1:34 flat for the mile. He was not finished. He galloped out another furlong for the 1 1/8 mile in 1:47 4/5 another record at Saratoga. MOW could only manage a 1:49 4/5 on a fast track at Belmont ridden hard to edge out Grier. That Belmont he ran on was rated as one of the fastest tracks in the country at that time. Belmont was redone in 1919. Cont.
rscarbro100 in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Secretariat fast workout in 'MUD' July 28th was faster fractions than his Belmont race on a fast track. Source Steve Haskins. Not only that he was carring that virus then. So please don't tell me he could not have ran the Belmont race much faster. None of his workouts ever hurt him and thats what a trainer looks for is not to work them to hard. Secretariat never missed an oat after his workouts meaning they did not hurt him in no way. He done them with 'EASE'.How about that?
rscarbro100 in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
man o war wuz at a gallop when he win the jockey club he could have easily run faster everyone knows, secretariat run any faster in the belmont and his heart blow up from all the drugs hez on
man o war never take a drug in his life maybe they have aspirn back then how many drugs wuz secretariat on you in a fantasy world thinking none he probably on a pharmacy
your stupid dont write me anymore
theotherdoutzen in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Hey asshole give us the proof he took drugs. When you lose you resort to him taking drugs. Were is the proof dumb ass? Thats right you got nothing. Hoiw in the hell you know MOW was in a gallop in the Jockey Cub race? Secretariat ran the Belmont without raising a sweat. Not my words but the words of Kent Hollingsworth Bloodhorse editor and many more. Red Smith said he could have broken the world record if asked by Turcotte. That was less than 2:23 flat. You no nothing but shit.
rscarbro100 in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
you a lil naive kid if you think any of them racehorses "clean" its jus like any other endurance sport the drugs ahead of the tests you have no idea. nfl tested for drugs hahahah you think 350 pounds run 4.5 40s without drugs you crazy. tour de france every one of them riders doping, horses no different.
you livin in a fantasy disney world call me anything u want doesnt change the facts. drugged athletes inconsistent, secretrait great in one racethen get smoked in another. obvious
theotherdoutzen in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
u and your so and so said this who cares? count fleet's trainer seen them both and said count fleet could beat secretrait, secretariats own trainer said ruffian could have beaten secretariat its all talk talk talk.
if secretariat run any faster in the belmont his heart blow up like a grenade or he bow a tendon or who knowz what esle then he doesnt even finish the race and ol penny go bankrupt with no breeding stop believing in fairy tales.
theotherdoutzen in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
jus cuz youre the president of the dead horse fan club doesn't mean anyones gotta prove anything to you. you just a lil kid cryin cuz everyone doesnt love your favorite pet.
theotherdoutzen in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
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Author withheld
We must also mention the weight MOW carried in his record breaking mile & 1 1/2 mile race since you never will hear it from Evyn or any other MOW fan. You got it right. A light 118 lbs for both those records. And we must make a point that when MOW carried that 138 lbs. in the Potomac running a 1 1/16 mile in 1:44.4 that Dr. Fager ran another furlong in his record breaking mile & was clocked 1:44 & change passing the 1 1/8 pole carring just 4 lbs less than MOW.Cont.
rscarbro100 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Mr. Schumann I know the weight Man o' War carried in every race he ever entered, the huge weights he conceded to his competition, the conditions on every track, the historical settings, you name it. What would you like to know about Man o' War I'd be happy to educate you.
But thank you for jumping on my Dr. Fager bandwagon, I believe it was me who turned you on to that fine horse who may just be the best of all time (see previous conversations).
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I'm a huge fan of the Bid but I think the Doctor had the best single season ever as a 4-year old. HOY, champion handicap, sprinter, and co-champion grass (doubly amazing cause he hated grass), plus setting a blazing mile record which I believe still stands today on dirt, having only been equaled.
Not to take anything away from the Bid, that horse could do it all.
Affirmed: amazing horse but Fager had to deal with Damascus and Damascus > Alydar.
evyn10014 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
The Bid could not do it all. He never was a great long distance horse. Lost 2 of 2 1 1/2 mile races. Delp even said he probably was not a 1 1/2 miler. He did not have the stamina like other great horses. The 1:57 4/5 on a super fast Santa Anita track that is slightly downhill as a 4 year old was matched by 3 year old Secretariat 'Pulling Up' in the M.C.. Far as the safety pin goes Delp said at the barn after the race he had not excuses for the loss. Why did he change his mind later?
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I don't believe I was talking to you, and I don't believe we were talking about Secretariat.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Yup, I was referring to his ability to win as a front runner or make a late charge. Don't know about the safety pin... that's an interesting point. Count Fleet had an injured hoof for the KD but still took care of business.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 10 months ago
Love the Bid. If only for a safety pin we would have had another TC winner. And easily at that.
But when it comes to the top 5 I think it's pretty tough to crack that list -- it's just what order you put them in. Secretariat, MOW, Kelso, Fager, and (BigCy will hate me for this) I'd put Count Fleet ahead of Citation.
I'd find it very hard to put the Bid, Affirmed, or Slew in Kelso's league though. That horse did it all at every distance with every weight in all conditions.
evyn10014 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I read an article on ESPN where Kenny Mayne was talking about the decline of horse racing and why that is.
It seems simple to me: While athletes in other sports keep getting bigger/faster/stronger/better and shattering old records, it's the opposite in horse racing.
The horses of today don't measure up to the greats of days past. Every year we wait for another Secretariat, or even an Affirmed, but instead we get shadows of the breed's former greatness.
evyn10014 11 months ago
secretariat beacause the only time he wasnt in the money was his first race.
hiimbob1200 11 months ago
huh? where you get htis crap? MOw in the money every single race. his ONE loss if the race even half a furlong longer he would ahve won that too the stupid starter let them go when he wuz turned around at the net -- they didn't have gates back them. he should have been undefeated.
theotherdoutzen in reply to hiimbob1200 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
and mow carry more weight as a 2 year old than secretariat ever carry as a 3 year old. no comparison btwn these horses secretariat was A top horse mow wuz THE top horse.
theotherdoutzen in reply to hiimbob1200 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
re: your comment to the question to me, you probably know what Eddie Arcaro said when he was asked to compare Citation and Kelso, having ridden both, the master said "Kelso would have kicked the shit out of Citation."
How Citation is ranked above Kelso in bloodhorse is beyond me. Now whether Kelso was better than Sec is a matter of opinion. As a 3-year old? No way. But taking his incredible career... I don't know. I may be wrong about MOW all this time. Kelso might be the GOAT.
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Your right about Kelso. Eddie thought Kelso was better than Citation. I also believe Kelso was better than CY. But as we know Eddy said more than once the man that rode them both that Secretariat was better than both of them. That is my opinion as well and if it wasn't how could I argue with Arcaro a man that knew more than all of us put together. Its about simple as that. Arcaro knew all the old time track experts in his days. All told him that seen both Secretariat better than MOW.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Bloodhorse should have never picked those 7 panelist to vote who was best. If Secretariat would have won it would not have been fair to MOW or any of the other horses that they did not ever seen run. Why did they not let the old time track horseman vote who seen most of all the ones on the top 100 list? They had much more knowledge and it would have been a different ranking for sure. Whether they would have been100% correct? NO, but I believe it would have been much better.
rscarbro100 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I couldn't agree more that the bloodhorse list is highly questionable at times... I think they have the top 10 about right but I disagree with the order. To me Sec MOW Fager and Kelso are the best horses ever.
Everyone has their biases though. Count Fleet's trainer thought he could beat any horse that ever ran...
evyn10014 in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Wrong. MOW's time at 1 5/8's faster than Secretariat.
evyn10014 in reply to softballchic399 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Phar Lap was a great horse but nowhere near the league of Secretariat or MOW or Fager, Kelso, Citation or Count Fleet. To name a few.
btw, Phar Lap never ran as fast as MOW, look up the DRF times.
evyn10014 in reply to benno1204 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Fans of either horse will never convince each other than one is better than the other, but one thing is for certain:
If either of them raced today, barring injuries, they would win every race they entered. They were so much better than the horses of today it's almost mind-boggling.
peace
evyn10014 11 months ago 3
I was referring to the comment on how you measure horses' greatness. It's very slanted in the racing community toward those that show brilliance at an early age. But horses like Fager and Kelso were just as impressive in my opinion, and are both underrated I think.
evyn10014 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Sec spectacular confirmation must surely capture fans - but not only did he look good standing still, but his smooth harmonious way of running was impressive as well. Everyone saw that especially in the Belmont.
Duckworth17 11 months ago 3
Probably most would agree that Secretariat is the most majestic confirmation among TB's.His head was nice as well but I think the best looking head on a racehorse is Citation. It is 'chiseled' in spectacular fashion. I mean, it looked like he was carved out of Elgin marble. From the Parthenon perhaps...
Duckworth17 11 months ago
yes but MOW got 100 lenghts and Sec only got 23 or 24, its hands down MOW
SeeYaOnSondee in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I see the BS lives on on this page. People marking good comments as spam when they have no response to them.
Everyone knows which 3 people do that too. Unless that's one person using 3 names.
Bunch of little kids.
evyn10014 11 months ago
ha they spam me for this talking versatility
"you aint gonna win that argument with secretariat. man o war he wins races in every kind of track condition with weights no horse in the70's or now ever face. Citation was more versatile and so wuz kelso. Seattle slew he won the belmont knee deep in the mud in a romp. Lot of horses have versatility not just secretariat."
theotherdoutzen in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I believe Kelso tied MOW's record at 1 5/8's and set the WR at 2 miles. I'd say both Kelso and MOW were monsters at distance as well. Especially Kelso.
I don't think Secretariat ever ran 2 miles (nor did MOW).
evyn10014 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
If MOW and Secretariat raced in the 70's under equal terms/weights as 3 year olds I think it would have gone back and forth like Fager and Damascus. They were both dominating and great and determined to win.
Which was better is a speculation no one can ever prove or disprove.
evyn10014 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I disagree. If MOW raced in the 70's he never would have carried that weight as a 2 or 3 year old. No horse did anymore. MOW was also devastating at every distance.
If MOW had raced in the 70's he still would have won. He would have gotten beaten occasionally like Secretariat did, but he still would have won. And because of + competition he would have had much faster times. He would have stepped it up to win. That's what the great ones do.
evyn10014 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
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Author withheld
Secretariat had many great races. But his Belmont was immortal. Take away Belmont and there are a lot of contenders right there with him.
All the top horses had races where they either had to make a bold move to win, where they came from behind, or races where they just flat out blew the doors off everyone and didn't fade. That's what top horses do. They find ways to win when lesser horses can't.
Zenyatta also did progressive negative splits in a race only slightly shorter.
evyn10014 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I think Secretariat's win on grass in I think his last race was one of his most impressive wins, considering the conditions. He still set a TR on wet grass.
evyn10014 in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
1 - MOW
2 - KELSO
3 - SECRETARIAT/DR. FAGER
4 - COUNT FLEET
5 - CITATION
Take out Secretariat's Belmont and he's at the end of the shortlist.
evyn10014 11 months ago
"Most perfectly proportioned thoroughbred specimen to ever exist?" LOL are you a little girl with a crush on a horse or what?
No one has any idea who's the most perfectly conformed TB ever. Every one of them has flaws. And most "beautiful" horses can't race worth a damn.
The Bid was spectacularly unattractive but man was he spectacular on the track.
evyn10014 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
Not my convo but I have to comment... "Not just some racing journals..." You mean the most prestigious racing journals edited by the top experts in racing? Bloodhorse and Daily Racing Form?
Hah. Time, Newsweek, Sports Illustrated -- he was on the cover of those because of his popularity with people at the time. MOW was on the cover of the "little" racing journals because the top experts consider him the best of all time. Period.
evyn10014 in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
you aint gonna win that argument with secretariat. man o war he wins races in every kind of track condition with weights no horse in the70's or now ever face. Citation was more versatile and so wuz kelso. Seattle slew he won the belmont knee deep in the mud in a romp. Lot of horses have versatility not just secretariat.
theotherdoutzen in reply to rcschumann (Show the comment) 11 months ago
thank you, someone with some perspective.
evyn10014 in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Man O' War he'll show every racehorse that steps on track whos the best of everything!
Secretariat......... you better move out of the way becuase you are ALLWAYS going to be 2nd to ManO' War!!!!:)
summerkolodziej 11 months ago
people act like horse racing just started in man o warz day but it was around for hundreds of years before. The best horses back then would win today just look at the track times. It's a dumb comparison any way there dead and they can't race to find out anyway.
But Secretariat would be afraid of Man o War that horse was tough and mean.
theotherdoutzen 11 months ago 2
If you measure greatness by 1 RACE then Secretariat belmont is the greatest.
If greatness in BREAKING RECORDS then both man o war and secretariat did it constantly and man o war set more. Swaps set a bunch too.
If you measure greatness in CONSISTENCY OVER YEARS then five times horse of the year KELSO is the greatest.
But if you measure greatness in WINNING and DOMINATION then MOW is the greatest.
Is a sport so I'll go with the WINNER Man o war.
theotherdoutzen 11 months ago 3
Good point. Funny no response to that from the secretariat/justin bieber groupies out there. All they can do is cite quotes from some 80 year old who said this or that or a jockey watching a race from the stands making a comment about a horse he'd never even ridden. LOL.
evyn10014 in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
1 like for the video 1 dislike for nasty comments
theotherdoutzen 11 months ago
There's a reason man o warz on the cover of both bloodhorses top horses and the drf champions book, and it isn't just cuz he's so pretty.
theotherdoutzen 11 months ago
Man o war would have whupped secretariat's ass just like he did every other horse he ever faced.
theotherdoutzen 11 months ago
I don't think it would have been an ass-whippin either way.
In a fantasy world it would be the greatest race in history -- and I think it'd be very close. The front runner MOW vs. the blazing kick of Secretariat...
(And yes I think MOW could run 1.5 in 2:24 on a modern track with competition)
They might have both hurt themselves trying to win, in all honesty.
evyn10014 in reply to theotherdoutzen (Show the comment) 11 months ago
man o war was the alpha horse, secretariat look that tiger in the eye and he would have gotten broken like all them other horses and never been the same horse again
theotherdoutzen in reply to evyn10014 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
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great movie!
stophorseabuseimmadi 11 months ago
That is the reasoning developed at great length here....with respect to Owens /Man o' War.
Duckworth17 11 months ago
Both are beautiful. Horse racing, maybe because animals are so innocent compared to us, makes me cry. Sometimes I wish they'd end it when I hear they have to put them to sleep. If Man O'War was held back at the gate, that should be taken into consideration, but the record of Secretariat is amazing with 2 triple crown undefeated records, there was a glitch in the timing of the preakness, we will never know. But he won, by 31 lengths, the Belmont? But lived just she of 19yrs Man O'War 30yrs
sparklingmichele 11 months ago
Man O' War-just look at the pictures. He carries himself in a regal manner that Secretariat does not have. The one race he lost, he lost by a head, after he was held in the gate by the attendant due to conspiracy. Let's not forget that Man O' War ran with weight in the high 130s-before the handicapping regulations of Secretariat's day (and while making track records). He would've won the Derby (and Triple Crown) if his owner had entered him. Man O' War is the original, and only, Big Red.
MsPookzilla 11 months ago
Secretariat - end of discussion - the track records speak volumes!
ValerieHarris1 11 months ago 2
This has been flagged as spam show
well dont you feel good about yourself! peabrain, there's the pot calling the kettle black..
MsMockturtle 11 months ago
well dont you feel good about yourself! peabrain, there's the pot calling the kettle black..
MsMockturtle 11 months ago
A friend directed me here, said to read the comment posts. Said I'd find groups of name calling adults behaving like braying pubescents, bolstering their self-esteems by lashing out edlessly at each other about the relative merits of a couple of dead horses, animals that sported pea-size brains, whose only ability in life was to run mindlessly in a circle, and whose bodily remains were consumed by maggots that eat the dead decades ago. With all due respect, he might have called it right.
MichaelSpellman1 11 months ago
Apparently your friend has a peabrain, which in all honesty must be bigger than your mustard seed sized brain, since you listened to him.
MelC54 in reply to MichaelSpellman1 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
~ secretariat is the greatest horse to ever live. ~ and im not gonna say WAS the greatest horse, because no horse can touch him so he IS the greatest horse to ever live
TheExoticAnimal 11 months ago 2
well they can be both of them but i think secretariat
123cocoagirl 11 months ago
On Belmont Stakes Day, Secretariat.
mrsrichardpeck 11 months ago
it's really hard to compare the two, with more than 50 years between them so many improvements have been made to racing.....they are both legends (MOW and Sec), Kelso also a fabulous horse, but in a completely different league. I want another triple crown winner :)
denabluechicken in reply to rscarbro100 (Show the comment) 11 months ago
It wasn't very hard for the old time veteran horseman to compare who was best who has seen both my good man. 43 yr. veteran DRF Charles Hatton said the track perhaps 1 second faster, Kent Hollingsworth Bloodhorse editor said training had not changed much at all, aluminum shoes does not make a horse go faster according to a man who made & sold them. So where are the big improvements? I tell you the biggest improvement. It was in the 'BREEDING'.
rscarbro100 in reply to denabluechicken (Show the comment) 11 months ago
How do you figure Kelso was in a different league? In what way? When you're talking about the top five horses or so of all time, the difference is millimeters.
Check out the DRF and you'll find Kelso ran very competitive times as a 3 yr old as Secretariat, tied MOW's 1 5/8's record, and set a WR at 2 miles which neither MOW or Sec ever ran, and Kelso the 5 time horse of the year.
Kelso was amazing. Dr. Fager neck and neck with Sec/Mow and Kelso as well.
evyn10014 in reply to denabluechicken (Show the comment) 11 months ago
I don't know. That's really a tough decision to make. Both Man O' War and Secretariat were beasts!!! The absolute best in their own time.
terralriver 11 months ago